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Old 07-05-2013, 04:45 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malcolmvexxed
Very true, I guess if poisoning the well was permanent an awful lot of companies never would have had repeat buyers.


The main caveat though... is that in many cases, the Corporations do have the "Discipline" and "Depth of Strength" to cope with these disasters, avoid them, or spin-doctor them away.

Just look at "The Xbox 180 Statement" issued by Don Mattrick, in which Microsoft recanted their entire DRM strategy and ended with "Thank you for helping us shape future of Xbox One."

I remember back in the early 2000's... there was this analysis of the dot-com bubble bursting. And many analysts said... that while the Internet "changed many market dynamics", the lesson was that the model got misapplied.

There were sites thinking of selling beer on the internet when in reality they could only cater to their neighborhoods... there was even a site selling ad space when all it really contains was instructions for how to eat a banana - it was just one page.

There were ridiculous things like this... to which analysts said: "Use of the internet as a medium of commerce became undisciplined and many of the proponents on it were either intentionally performing in irrational ways, or were doing so out of operational inexperience."

"At the end of the day, reality catches up."

Brick-and-mortar corporations, whose experience and "manuals" date back to the Industrial Revolution, normally have more expertise, more experience, and benefit from higher Operational discipline.

But like I said, it doesn't mean it never happens to them... It just means they know how to cope with it better... but again.. the logic of what they do is available to Indies who do their homework.

And even when the dotcom bubble burst... People just learned how to market (and buy) properly online. It'll be the same thing with Crowdfunding. There will be "guidelines" and "Key Performance Indicators" that help people weed out the good from the bad to the downright evil.

The "wild period" right now with crowdfunding is not unlike the time when somebody thought a web-site about "How to Eat a Banana" would be big business.
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Old 07-05-2013, 09:11 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malcolmvexxed
The problem is that people keep calling it democratization, but in cases like this it just looks like people taking money and not following through, which destroys consumer confidence in the process.....


I would feel that way too if I had backed a project that asked for $400k, got millions and blew it (how can that happen?) with no sign of the project being completed.
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Old 07-05-2013, 09:30 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dillster
I would feel that way too if I had backed a project that asked for $400k, got millions and blew it (how can that happen?) with no sign of the project being completed.

This. Also, it seems the OP has got it backwards. Why is the public, who put down their hard earned money, being "blamed"? Quite the opposite- if the people who ask for money cannot estimate the time and budget requirements for completing their project they do not deserve the funds in the first place.

One aspect of being a successful developer is being able to realistically estimate your own skills and factor in potential outside factors which can delay the project or require more money. If they can't do that, especially when they got N times more money than they asked for, why would anyone else be blamed but them?
 
Old 07-05-2013, 10:39 AM   #19
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Correct me as I may have missed it, but I didn't happen to see any form of an apology to the backers..
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Old 07-05-2013, 11:01 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrainFreeze
This. Also, it seems the OP has got it backwards. Why is the public, who put down their hard earned money, being "blamed"? Quite the opposite- if the people who ask for money cannot estimate the time and budget requirements for completing their project they do not deserve the funds in the first place.


Spot on. This isn't a problem of perception, this is a clear cut case of a developer royally screwing something up. It's entirely the fault of the developer for planning poorly from the start. People have every right to be pissed off.
 
Old 07-05-2013, 01:10 PM   #21
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Quote:
The backers of the project are largely going nuts on their kickstarter comments section, but missing benchmarks feels normal to me after working in these fields for a long time. Maybe being beholden to thousands and thousands of people with no professional experience isn't superior to having to report to a company and 6-7 superiors who are in the same field as you?


Wow. No. Sorry, but this isnt 'normal', and shouldnt be treated as such. Saying that, and excusing the behavior is just wrong, and it paints creative people in a TERRIBLE light.

I think that the biggest issue is that they are treating this like a AAA title, and its not. They didn't need to bring in Peter Chan to do concept art. They didn't need to specifically score live music for the trailer, or score live music at all for the game.

You can find INCREDIBLE musicians online who can create full string orchestral pieces by themselves (Stasis will have a fully orchestral OST) at very reasonable prices.

Double Fine has some amazing artists in-house who are MORE than capable of creating the concepts and the pieces of art required for the game.

I think that attacking a bootstrapped project with a AAA mentality is ridiculous. And sadly, they missed out on an opportunity to really bring in some incredible NEW talent on an amazing project.
Its the equivalent of shooting an indie movie with your friends, and hiring a catering company and location trailers, instead of ordering pizza and sleeping in cars.

That said, the game does look very nice from what I've seen. I like the pseudo 3D stuff for the parallax, and the 'smoothness' of the game in general (although the art style isnt really my cup of tea).

The game will end up being released, weather they go episodic, or pre-alpha...or whatever option they choose to pursue, and I have no doubt that it will be a fun game to play. But I dont think it will be the 'original vision', or the game it SHOULD have been if they really looked at it as an independent production - which is very sad.
 
Old 07-05-2013, 02:01 PM   #22
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There probably was some ostentatious choices being made when it came to spending. Its a pretty poor display and shows a lack of respect to the backers in my opinion. If they haven't apologised, they should and future Kickstarterers, should learn from this.
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Old 07-05-2013, 02:35 PM   #23
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I've worked at one of the very largest game companies when one of it's most popular franchises was being developed. The initial scope of the design is always a bit ludicrous in scope and hind sight is *always* 20/20.
But its all part of an *internal process* that refines, simplifies and manages the release cycle until its-maybe not perfect-but successful enough that the consumer public eat it up. And its a success.
Meanwhile they -the public- never see all the stuff that went on the proverbial cutting room floor. The trials and tribulations that went into making it. hearts were broken still-but only those within the team (sheltered within the company) ever knew what issues had to be surmounted to make release.

A project such as this maybe stands a little too naked a little too long
to make the public feel 'comfortable' if they have a naive and personal financial stake in it.

But I am not saying the developer is completely innocent here either...
but maybe its tougher to have so many 'bosses'.
 
Old 07-05-2013, 02:47 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by circusboy

A project such as this maybe stands a little too naked a little too long
to make the public feel 'comfortable' if they have a naive and personal financial stake in it.

But I am not saying the developer is completely innocent here either...
but maybe its tougher to have so many 'bosses'.


I don't think that people really feel 'hurt' that they have a $30 personal stake in the project. I myself am a backer, and I'm under no illusion that because I forked over as much as a movie ticket and some popcorn for this, that I should have a say in development.

They don't have so many bosses. I know that MOST of the backers are happy just to have what this was pitched as...an Adventure Game created by one of the genre's original masters.

Just because a large AAA title goes through a 4 year dev cycle, and can afford to create assets that are never used, doesn't mean that that's the right way of designing and building games.
This should never have been looked at like a studio produced game title. It should have been looked at like an independent production. This may be the 'reality' of AAA game production, but it should never be the reality of independent development.
 
Old 07-05-2013, 03:18 PM   #25
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True but that depends to on how much experience you have as an 'independent' developer.
Mr. Schafer came from 10 years at LucasArts.
And the money seemed to be 'pouring in' to his independent project.
Not saying he's innocent. But I can see how he got 'lost'.
 
Old 07-05-2013, 03:31 PM   #26
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I think that Pyke is right. This was an independent effort and most indie productions tend to be tackled with and element of 'thrift' when it comes to spending. When more money flooded into the pot, that didn't give the creator cart blanc to go crazy.

Care should have been take to handle the budget and spend it wises. $400k is enough to make a good solid game. Not a AAA, but a good game none the less. When the KS hit millions, they must have got complacent. They should have stuck to the original plan and then delivered extra over the coming months.
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Old 07-05-2013, 04:17 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyke
......I myself am a backer, and I'm under no illusion that because I forked over as much as a movie ticket and some popcorn for this, that I should have a say in development.......



Would your experience put you off backing them again? I mean, most people wouldn't want to risk putting a hand into the fire and getting burned twice.
 
Old 07-05-2013, 07:17 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyke
Wow. No. Sorry, but this isnt 'normal', and shouldnt be treated as such. Saying that, and excusing the behavior is just wrong, and it paints creative people in a TERRIBLE light.

I think that the biggest issue is that they are treating this like a AAA title, and its not. They didn't need to bring in Peter Chan to do concept art. They didn't need to specifically score live music for the trailer, or score live music at all for the game.

You can find INCREDIBLE musicians online who can create full string orchestral pieces by themselves (Stasis will have a fully orchestral OST) at very reasonable prices.

Double Fine has some amazing artists in-house who are MORE than capable of creating the concepts and the pieces of art required for the game.

I think that attacking a bootstrapped project with a AAA mentality is ridiculous. And sadly, they missed out on an opportunity to really bring in some incredible NEW talent on an amazing project.
Its the equivalent of shooting an indie movie with your friends, and hiring a catering company and location trailers, instead of ordering pizza and sleeping in cars.

That said, the game does look very nice from what I've seen. I like the pseudo 3D stuff for the parallax, and the 'smoothness' of the game in general (although the art style isnt really my cup of tea).

The game will end up being released, weather they go episodic, or pre-alpha...or whatever option they choose to pursue, and I have no doubt that it will be a fun game to play. But I dont think it will be the 'original vision', or the game it SHOULD have been if they really looked at it as an independent production - which is very sad.


Are you saying that movie, music, comic and video game projects don't go over budget and miss deadlines/benchmarks all the time? Creative people are often terrible at follow through in a timely fashion, I don't think that's a secret. WWZ just spent an extra 120m re-shooting their third act. Agreed about them not spending like a real indie project although I think the game looks excellent and I'm a fan of schaffers work.
 
Old 07-05-2013, 11:31 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malcolmvexxed
Are you saying that movie, music, comic and video game projects don't go over budget and miss deadlines/benchmarks all the time?


It's obvious that they do - frequently - but that doesn't mean this behavior should be expected, or worse, subsidized by backers who put money into Project A and then told more money is needed to realize Project B. That's not what they put their money behind, no matter how cool the end product may be.

The "kid in a candy store" mentality that seems to have been the driving force behind Broken Age's design process isn't something consumers should "get used to" or expect from any Kickstarter project, let alone one from a well-established studio like Double Fine.

It's a damn shame, because the project will probably turn out pretty well, but it sets a dangerous precedent for crowdfunded games and casts a dim light on a legitimate source of funds for developers who can deliver the game they promised without going crazy when goals are exceeded.
 
Old 07-06-2013, 12:09 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by circusboy
I've worked at one of the very largest game companies when one of it's most popular franchises was being developed. The initial scope of the design is always a bit ludicrous in scope and hind sight is *always* 20/20.
But its all part of an *internal process* that refines, simplifies and manages the release cycle until its-maybe not perfect-but successful enough that the consumer public eat it up. And its a success.
Meanwhile they -the public- never see all the stuff that went on the proverbial cutting room floor. The trials and tribulations that went into making it. hearts were broken still-but only those within the team (sheltered within the company) ever knew what issues had to be surmounted to make release.

A project such as this maybe stands a little too naked a little too long
to make the public feel 'comfortable' if they have a naive and personal financial stake in it.

But I am not saying the developer is completely innocent here either...
but maybe its tougher to have so many 'bosses'.


This is one of the BIGGEST reasons I haven't gone to crowdfunding and I am NEVER making a "Production Blog". I think Production Blogs are an awful idea.

Rest assured when we go online it's for something that is in fact going to audiences.

Disappointment must ALWAYS be ours and ours alone.

I always saw it as cutting both ways.... It's not fair to the team making the film/game to have their early WIP being exposed to a sampling public that is too large - you can show WIP to a "control group".. but not the entire planet.

On the other hand, at the WIP stage, it is too early to expose potential audiences to disappointments like arguments, in-fighting or those features that didn't work, or that sequence everybody raved about that ended up not being there...

It's just.. Production Blogs and similar "Open House" things are really bad ideas 9 times out of 10.... You can't appreciate what's there anyway since it's not the finished article. And it's so much work to update them.

I don't know why some people bother to make them, it's like inviting people to sit with you in the toilet.
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Last edited by CGIPadawan : 07-06-2013 at 12:13 AM.
 
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