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Old 06-08-2013, 01:21 PM   #46
noizFACTORY
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Didn't Dr. D do all of the lighting for Happy Feet 2 in Houdini + 3delight? From my limited experience with Houdini the rib exporter is quite amazing and highly customizable to the extent that you can probably write your own exporter.

While we are on this topic, have you guys checked out what Creation Platform folks are doing? Some really neat stuff out there. They are developing a lighting/lookdev module called Stage which seems quite promising.
 
Old 06-08-2013, 05:02 PM   #47
mr Bob
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SebKaine
@ Mr Bob >
You're absolutely right ! ... but only in the canvas of vfx for motion pictures in a big companie. In the world of commercial in small shops (where i live now) :
- you are the pipeline maker (cause there is no R&D )
- you are the TD problem solver if things go wrong
- you are your own supervisor ( most of the time )
- you have N/rand(3-5) to do a job that would ask N time in reality
- you have no renderfarm and sometimes you lunch all on your local machine ...

In this world of CG guerilla such things as:
- how many time take a frame to render on this renderer
- how many time take a shot to setup on this renderer
- how time do i need to integrate the engine in the workflow
are quite essential ...

But i agree with you guys Mantra is a perfect engine for throwing all FX. question is when you send your mesh to the lighters what are now the cool options, especially when lighters are force to work extremely fast. I have never work in a place that use Mantra as a main lighting engine. Arnold has this big advantage to be extremely easy to understand, while mantra is more on a Prman Base that has evolve to a hybrid Prman / Arnold ...

I love Mantra and i don't need as a FX guy to go on other engine, but i'm not sure that mantra is still the best choice to light Cars / Large env / Glass / Parfum ...



As ever there is a trade off if your a small shop its better to get something that's expandable out of the box and with great support.The big plus for me with Houdini and mantra for lighting is the seamless transition from taking your geometry , applying shaders to rendering passes all of which can be set up out of the box with no scripts , no plugins and the ability to create tools on the fly without any python and share those tools across multiple shots , that alone is a massive step in saving time. Hell you can even copy paste nodes between shots if you so wish.
You would certainly need some time and a skilled TD to set your bridge up between submitting a job to the farm and getting it rendered.

Rendering glass and those highly reflective materials , sure vray and MR have a host of idiot proof materials with tutorials , it would just take a bit of time to build yourself some custom shaders. At least you have the ability to do that in Houdini and hell you can render linear out of the box without having gamma correct nodes littered throughout your scene .

good luck !

b
 
Old 06-09-2013, 08:19 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noizFACTORY
Didn't Dr. D do all of the lighting for Happy Feet 2 in Houdini + 3delight? From my limited experience with Houdini the rib exporter is quite amazing and highly customizable to the extent that you can probably write your own exporter.


This was the case, and look how they finished*. I don't know anyone from lighting department there though, only fx team. Houdini's rib exporter is indeed famous for its reliability, and as any exporter in Houdini, a new one can be written with Python (using existing one as a template for example), but Arnold doesn't read ribs, so what's the use of it

Quote:
While we are on this topic, have you guys checked out what Creation Platform folks are doing? Some really neat stuff out there. They are developing a lighting/lookdev module called Stage which seems quite promising.


Lightweight custom interface built on top of the geometry engine. Smells like a future, still I'm not sure if this isn't too optimistic about features requirements.


* - R&H, DD - old times flagship Houdni's studios, Dr.D new acquaintance. Maybe Houdini is indeed too expensive...
 
Old 06-09-2013, 09:12 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr Bob
As ever there is a trade off if your a small shop its better to get something that's expandable out of the box and with great support.The big plus for me with Houdini and mantra for lighting is the seamless transition from taking your geometry , applying shaders to rendering passes all of which can be set up out of the box with no scripts , no plugins and the ability to create tools on the fly without any python and share those tools across multiple shots , that alone is a massive step in saving time. Hell you can even copy paste nodes between shots if you so wish.
You would certainly need some time and a skilled TD to set your bridge up between submitting a job to the farm and getting it rendered.

Rendering glass and those highly reflective materials , sure vray and MR have a host of idiot proof materials with tutorials , it would just take a bit of time to build yourself some custom shaders. At least you have the ability to do that in Houdini and hell you can render linear out of the box without having gamma correct nodes littered throughout your scene .

good luck !

b


Thanks for all the inputs ! I do share your pov , H has some major avantage has a lighting tool for small shops.
- Scene assembling very powerful and reliable
- ROP tree and Takes to organise your renders
- the best embedded render engine of the market with High Versatility and Flexibility
- connection with Maxwell / Arnold / Prman / 3Delight /
- you save you all the pain to output your FX to an external apps for the lighters ( and this step can sometimes eat WEEKS of works ... )
- you have VEX and this really cool for the old school guys !

And as you said you have support ! you ask a question , and you get an answer extremely fast ... and for a commercial small shop this has NO price !

But i think that things can really be enhance ... and people like SESI should definitly look at what Maxwell do. I don't see engines that has made some better choice than maxwell, they choose their philosophy (No Compromise ... ) and they stay on it all the time, and this will really pay in the futur.
- they choose to have an external UI for rendering before anybody
- they choose to don't use 3D terms for shaders but only physicall ones
- they choose to make an external shader builder that can be call from any 3D apps
- they were at the edge of the PBR dogme !
- they have their great shader palette that give you access to tons of shaders
- they have this Mtor delux way of building shaders but with true physical components

The list is long and i really hope SESI will take inspiration of all this to enhance their PBR workflow !

Cheers

E
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Last edited by SebKaine : 06-09-2013 at 09:28 AM.
 
Old 06-09-2013, 05:44 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYmek
Houdini's rib exporter is indeed famous for its reliability, and as any exporter in Houdini, a new one can be written with Python, but Arnold doesn't read ribs, so what's the use of it

Looking at the ass file's (best extension name), the construct isn't that different to a RIB and I'm sure someone on odforce has written a rib to ass converter.

https://support.solidangle.com/disp...s+File+Examples

Quote:
Originally Posted by SYmek
Lightweight custom interface built on top of the geometry engine. Smells like a future, still I'm not sure if this isn't too optimistic about features requirements.


* - R&H, DD - old times flagship Houdni's studios, Dr.D new acquaintance. Maybe Houdini is indeed too expensive...


R&H wasn't strictly a Houdini studio. It only really used Houdini w/ Mantra for when it was some sort of FX where wren wasn't ideal. For most other things, they had multiple in house lighting and rendering tools.

Besides, I don't think Houdini licenses were anywhere near contributing to the bad industry business that put those companies under.
 
Old 06-09-2013, 10:44 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYmek

* - R&H, DD - old times flagship Houdni's studios, Dr.D new acquaintance. Maybe Houdini is indeed too expensive...


houdini too expensive ? can you elaborate please, thanks?
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Old 06-09-2013, 11:07 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DagMX
Looking at the ass file's (best extension name), the construct isn't that different to a RIB and I'm sure someone on odforce has written a rib to ass converter.



I actually haven't seen yet, but does't matter if Arnold for Houdini is around the corner. I was simply sarcastic.


Quote:
R&H wasn't strictly a Houdini studio. It only really used Houdini w/ Mantra for when it was some sort of FX where wren wasn't ideal.

I didn't say it was "strictly Houdini's" and I didn't mean anything in particular, except that it was one of the oldest SESI's client.

Quote:
Besides, I don't think Houdini licenses were anywhere near contributing to the bad industry business that put those companies under.


Quote:
Originally Posted by popol
houdini too expensive ? can you elaborate please, thanks?


Is it me or Sunday syndrome?
 
Old 06-10-2013, 07:32 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by popol
houdini too expensive ? can you elaborate please, thanks?


HoudiniFX floating license is $6,995. Yearly annual upgrade plan is $3,995(!).
 
Old 06-10-2013, 09:18 AM   #54
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yes the annual upgrade is expansive ^^'., but free for the first year. For the lic price i'ts the same as maya (here, 7700 $ for the float lic)
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Old 06-10-2013, 09:31 AM   #55
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US Pricing for Maya is $3,675 not 7k. Plus you have to pay for batch licenses if i am not mistaken. Does that also count towards rendering? Don't know if abroad Licenses are differently priced for houdini?
 
Old 06-10-2013, 09:43 AM   #56
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7700$ is for the floating lic and 6000$ for the node loked lic for the french price (tax included)
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Old 06-11-2013, 12:30 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by popol
7700$ is for the floating lic and 6000$ for the node loked lic for the french price (tax included)


How much is subscription for Maya? I dont think it is $3,995ish..

Quote:
Originally Posted by instinct-vfx
US Pricing for Maya is $3,675 not 7k. Plus you have to pay for batch licenses if i am not mistaken. Does that also count towards rendering? Don't know if abroad Licenses are differently priced for houdini?


In US, I don't think anybody pay full sticker price for Maya or max.

Houdini comes with unlimited render(nothing special as max user, ALL max build-in and 3rd party render comes with unlimited render). But, any network simulation need batch license.

Last edited by gandhics : 06-11-2013 at 12:33 AM.
 
Old 06-11-2013, 10:22 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gandhics
How much is subscription for Maya? I dont think it is $3,995ish..

all the price i've post earlier was without the annual subscription,
so for the nodelocked maya lic with the annual subscription ( :
3900 E + ~700E for the subscription+~900E for the tax =
5500 euros(7300$)
and for the float lic :
4875E+ ~700E for the subscription + ~1100E for the tax =
6675E(8,864$)

Quote:
In US, I don't think anybody pay full sticker price for Maya or max.

Same here but it's still expensive^^'
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Last edited by popol : 06-11-2013 at 10:34 AM.
 
Old 06-11-2013, 12:19 PM   #59
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I was simply joking mentioning Houdini's prices in relation to R&H, DD etc, but as topic is crawling into this subject, no, I don't think Houdini is too expensive.

The problem with this setup is that SESI's favors or supports Houdini as an pipeline backend, so you got a main applications (Houdini and Houdini FX) with addons (supportive composer, HDK + command line tools, renderer, batch computing, asset management) in bundle for a very competitive price. This makes sense pipeline wise. Most of the people though consider Houdini as a simulation plugin for Maya, and then, its price seems to be soaring.

Specially in Europe, because of Adsk prices in euros, Houdini is very competitive, even more when you lit/render in Houdini, thus you need a bunch of less expensive licences to build the pipeline around it.
 
Old 06-11-2013, 03:52 PM   #60
mr Bob
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Quote:
Same here but it's still expensive^^'


I'm glad Houdini is expensive, it means they can hire the best developers who want of course to be paid and don't work for free. Plus enables them to offer world class support . If you think its expensive maybe you should charge more money.
 
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