Adobe Production Apps Alternatives

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Old 08 August 2013   #61
Originally Posted by rownd: Good move Adobe put something into place that nobody wants to use.



This is where I get confused. It seems all around cheaper and better with their 'cloud' authorization. (the app and your data is still local, so it's not an NDA problem.) It's well over 50% cheaper and you get more apps than any of their creative bundles. Why is this bad? Is it because people are all bootlegging?

For an individual to get all the apps they offer for about $600 a year seems... well, great. I guess I just don't understand the hate, though I don't love Adobe by any means. (But to be clear I believe in hate where it's due. Maybe I just don't get it.) From every calculation I've made it's more software for less cost than upgrades on creative suites.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. I kinda dig that.

Last edited by Diffus3d : 08 August 2013 at 06:59 PM.
 
Old 08 August 2013   #62
Most of the foundry's software comes with "great support" (twice the price) just so they don't have to deal with freelancers and hobbyists.

They choose not to deal with them because they can't imagine selling their software without the precious support that is useless for freelancers and hobbyists. This coming from the man himself.

How in the hell is that any better than what adobe is doing?
 
Old 08 August 2013   #63
How many people still use PS here anyway?

I mean for CG stuff it's kinda terrible isn't?

It's not linear, floating point, node based, LUT flexible and it's just strange how it uses alpha's etc.

What does PS have that Nuke and Mari don't?

As far as I can see the CG industry is quite quickly abandoning PS.
 
Old 08 August 2013   #64
Originally Posted by Diffus3d: This is where I get confused. It seems all around cheaper and better with their 'cloud' authorization. (the app and your data is still local, so it's not an NDA problem.) It's well over 50% cheaper and you get more apps than any of their creative bundles. Why is this bad? Is it because people are all bootlegging?

For an individual to get all the apps they offer for about $600 a year seems... well, great. I guess I just don't understand the hate, though I don't love Adobe by any means. (But to be clear I believe in hate where it's due. Maybe I just don't get it.) From every calculation I've made it's more software for less cost than upgrades on creative suites.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. I kinda dig that.



Have you made the calculation for the person who only upgrades very rarely (I know people who are still on PS3) or the hobbyist who buys it once for simple tasks when they had a bit of extra cash and never needs any more. It's this forced upgrade that's the main problem for me.
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Old 08 August 2013   #65
Originally Posted by Clanger: It's this forced upgrade that's the main problem for me.

If the CC is an 'upgrade', its a new paradigm for that term. In the new paradigm, the software stops working as soon as you stop paying. If we were to apply this paradigm to traditional craft/art, it would be like only being able to rent your paints, brushes, saws, hammers - all of your tools - from the art supply and tool stores. You couldn't own them and they are re-possessed if you don't make periodic payments. Further, if you chose to store your artwork at their facility (which they encourage), they would throw it all away if you stopped paying.
Imagine if all software were licensed this way... its Orwellian.
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Old 08 August 2013   #66
Originally Posted by gauranga108: How many people still use PS here anyway?

I wager a great many. Don't forget that Photoshop has been around for 20+ years. Being the swiss army knife of graphics tools, it's not going anywhere. As far as software goes, it's nearly as ubiquitous as the #2 pencil and probably second only to the Windows platform.

Quote: I mean for CG stuff it's kinda terrible isn't?

Photoshop may not be uniquely suited to 3D, but there are still a great many tasks at which it excels. There might be many small apps that specialize, but very few general purpose solutions as good as Photoshop. That's why finding a true "one size fits all" replacement is so difficult. Honestly? I may despise Adobe's tactics, but I find little reason to kick Photoshop to the curb.

Quote: It's not linear, floating point, node based, LUT flexible and it's just strange how it uses alpha's etc.

Nobody's saying that Photoshop is without its flaws. It does have problems. Every app does. With Photoshop, it's really only when you've got the hood cracked way open and have your hands all dirty that you notice. At that point, you're already probably accomplished enough to at least work around the problems.

That's not to excuse Adobe for being unresponsive and not adding in long requested features or fixes, but the tool we already have is still pretty darn impressive. I think that we do forget that sometimes. Just look at the Photoshop clones. It's easy to clone Photoshop's breadth of functionality, but copying its depth is still much harder.

Quote: What does PS have that Nuke and Mari don't?

That's tough to answer because, mainly, the issue isn't always one of functionality - imo.

A combo of Mari and Nuke may be awesome and cover a very specific type of functionality, but at a premium price. In that sense, you could argue that they're not even direct competition to Photoshop. With a combined price of over $6k, Mari & Nuke seem to be targeted at studios instead of individuals. Comparatively, at a paltry $20/month, Photoshop CC might as well be an impulse purchase. You spend more than that over the course of your cell phone contract.

I don't think that it has to be an "either or" scenario, personally. The apps may share common ground, but I don't think that they compete in the same space, nor do they have to. I think that both options can coexist. You just won't necessarily use them for the same exact purposes and, when there's an overlap, there'll be a task specific reason to choose one over the other.

As an issue of technicality, I'd certainly say that Photoshop's 20+ year lead on Mari does hold some advantages. Being around for only ~3 years, Mari doesn't nearly offer the same broad compatibility as Photoshop. It may well run beyond the approved chipsets, but stability and performance can vary from one extreme to the other. (In some cases, I've heard of it not running at all.)

Compartively, as long as you've got hardware that isn't powered by steam, Photoshop should run. How fast some of the higher end CPU intensive functions perform might vary, but Photoshop is the one app that should run on pretty much any modern system.

Quote: As far as I can see the CG industry is quite quickly abandoning PS.

Yeah. I don't see THAT happening. Sorry.

The CC initiative might see some defection, but there's just no way that Adobe would let Photoshop fail. I'll say it again, but Photoshop has been around nearly 25 years. You don't get to this point without having competition or bumps in the road. More over, with assets of nearly $10B and an employee base of 11k, Adobe has the resources to beat the problem into submission. If they wanted, they could practically (imo) banish certain competition to the same murky depths where the mob put Jimmy Hoffa.

Again, as a staple, Photoshop isn't going anywhere. It might fail at a few certain highly specialized tasks, but it's such a top notch general purpose solution for a great many things. There are just some many things that Photoshop does well that you might not want to do elsewhere.

Plus, as somebody doing the hiring, you might not be so quick to abandon Photoshop. There's a huge talent pool for Photoshop. That's what happens when you build a user base over 20+ years. Newer apps may offer a lot of powerful and cleverly designed features, but they're in the hands of far fewer people. That alone is one reason for studios to not want to immediately jump ship and abandon Photoshop.

Originally Posted by Clanger: Have you made the calculation for the person who only upgrades very rarely (I know people who are still on PS3) or the hobbyist who buys it once for simple tasks when they had a bit of extra cash and never needs any more. It's this forced upgrade that's the main problem for me.

Let's forget Photoshop's agressive pricing for a moment. If you're a hobbyist or casual user, you can deal with a clone app like PaintShop Pro X5. With a few notable, and annoying, differences, PSPX5 offers most of Photoshop's core functionality. For a hobbyist or casual user, there are options outside of Adobe.

For somebody who upgrades rarely, are you telling me that $20 a month is just too much? I'm not saying that I like Adobe's rental scheme. I hate it. However, you probably spend more than that each month on more trivial things. I too know people who still use PS3. However, they're more turned off by the rental aspect than the pricing. Adobe is being so competitive in this regard that it's almost a non-issue.

I won't disagree with you on the cumulative effect of monthly payments. You could hold onto PS3 for 6 years and only have ever invested $700, or whatever it cost at the time. When you add the expense of renting Photoshop (only) over the same 6 year period, that number balloons up to more than 2x that. That's not including the invariable price increases. If you were to do the entire suite, the price difference jumps even higher.

However, as the DLC issue has proven, people are more willing to be nickel & dimed over time than hit with a larger lump sum early on. More people think about the costs in the here & now instead of those in the long term. That's what Adobe's banking on.

Originally Posted by EightBit: In the new paradigm, the software stops working as soon as you stop paying. If we were to apply this paradigm to

And if your job entailed being on the road a lot and required rental/lease cars then the same exact problem would exist. The difference is that, when it comes to cars, you're provided the options of buying or renting. Adobe is providing no such options. THAT is the problem. Paying to rent Photoshop is a non-issue, provided that you know what you're getting into and are willing to assume the associate risks.

Just for argument's sake... If the $20/month it costs you to rent Photoshop alone is too much then your need for it might not be so great. Anybody with a real need for Photoshop won't even balk at the price. Unless you're just futzing around messing with photos of your kids, Photoshop is the app that pays for itself. I don't even think that price is an issue in that respect, not even in the long term.

Again, to me, the lack of options is the real problem, not price.

Quote: Further, if you chose to store your artwork at their facility (which they encourage), they would throw it all away if you stopped paying.

And if I encourage you to let me hold your wallet? Common sense dictates that when you've got something of value, you safeguard it. I once worked in a studio where, because they had high profile clients, they'd do four different type of backups at the end of every day. Only one of those backups was stored by a 3rd party.

Never put all of your eggs in one basket. I learned long ago that there's a price to be paid for not thoroughly backing up and it ain't pretty. If you put your faith in Adobe to store all of your data then it's your fault alone when something happens. When you pay somebody to secure your stuff and you stop paying.... Even storage lockers will eventually auction your stuff off after a prolonged period of non-payment.

Quote: Imagine if all software were licensed this way... its Orwellian.



Seriously, what Adobe is doing is just business. Pure & simple. It might be heavy handed and one sided, but it is far from the "Big Brother" totalitarian thing. Nobody's forcing you to play by their rules.
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Last edited by cookepuss : 08 August 2013 at 03:05 PM.
 
Old 08 August 2013   #67
Here's my two cents worth of frustration with Adobe right now:

1. Twice now when I've purchased a creative cloud license for software. (Specifically After Effects and the creative suite), I have found that the software which I already have installed,won't refresh its license and prohibits me from accessing it. I own the license, but my software won't let me use it. Support directs me to wait for an extended period of time, which cuts into immediate deadlines and directly harms my relationships with clients who expect results fast. I literally cannot use the software I own, without pleading with it by trying restarts, updates, uninstalls and reinstalls or other completely unnecessary mitigations.

2. Upon attempting to download After Effects CC, the download stays at 0% permanently, before returning a corrupt file error. Calls to support involve deleting temp folders, un-installing and reinstalling the update manager etc. All pointless wastes of time.

3. Upon attempting to download the most recent adobe update manager, the download suspends itself and throws an error saying that it may be counterfeit software, despite the fact it's all coming from Adobes website!

4. Their website is circular, ineffectual, and unhelpful. The knowledge I need is either buried layers deep, or I end up going in circles and clicking links to refer back and forth to the same pages. From A to B to C to A to B and so on. The website requires me to log in multiple times, and then forgets my session and requires more logins again. Many pages seem absolutely redundant. The page is littered with ads to buy the creative suite, which are annoying because I already bought it. I'm on the site to try and figure out how to USE it!

6. The terms of service are lengthy and complicated. I don't have time to read them every time Adobe updates them, and they don't exactly highlight the changes to make it easy for me. I feel like I have to contact my lawyer just to interpret half of them. I'm worried about what kinds of rights I'm going to sign away every time they update something.

7. Their support continues to pressure me to remote access my computer, something I have neither time nor desire nor legal authority to do when my hard drive is filled with work related assets under NDA. Giving remote access to our systems is a bit of a no-no, and I hate being treated like an idiot that can't follow simple instructions over the phone.

8. I have witnessed other artists have issues where their own property is flagged as copyrighted on Adobes services, and find their access to their own files limited. This is the kind of thing that kills projects, and ends relationships with good clients for us...and is NOT conductive to us wanting to use their service.

9. I hate the fact that when I stop paying adobe, I lose access to all my project files. I can't even re-render a client project in a different codec without first greasing adobes palms with silver and waiting 50 minutes for the license to refresh.

10. I hate that Adobe controls the updates, and risk having my workflow screwed up without notification.

11. I'm worried that they will remove features and leave me hanging for backwards compatibility. (Case in point, Pixelblender)

12. I'm concerned that prices will skyrocket in the future once they have a captive audience.
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Old 08 August 2013   #68
Ok I get it. These are all valid concerns. I guess I'm so used to my Autodesk software all not working once I cancel my sub that I've grown used to the idea. (but I still don't like it.)

Party on Garth.
 
Old 08 August 2013   #69
Originally Posted by Iaenic: Here's my two cents worth of frustration with Adobe right now:
1....
Wow! I remember a time in the good old days when there were 2 versions of After Effects and I wanted to upgrade to the high end version for a project - Adobe was closed for 2 weeks during the winter holidays!
Customer service has never been their strong suit, but I'm surprised at depth of poor service reflected in your experience with CC.
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Old 08 August 2013   #70
Great Audio Editor

After evaluating quite a few audio mixing apps, I discovered Reaper . With the disclaimer that I have not had any contact with them other than to download the trial, I want to point out that it is by far the best audio editor I've ever used. In 20+ years of working in computing, it is rare to come across apps in which the developers take such pride in the quality of their software - from features to UI. This is the first such program I've encountered in quite awhile.
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Old 08 August 2013   #71
Originally Posted by Diffus3d: Ok I get it. These are all valid concerns. I guess I'm so used to my Autodesk software all not working once I cancel my sub that I've grown used to the idea. (but I still don't like it.)

Party on Garth.


What do you mean? If you cancel your ADSK Sub you can still keep using the software indefinitely.
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Old 09 September 2013   #72
Drawing App

I evaluated and purchased DrawPlus . I didn't test it deeply and I don't do a ton of vector stuff, but I am very impressed with what I have seen - enough to give it a go.
Lots of cool features, definitely worth checking out if you're in the market for a vector based drawing app.
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Old 09 September 2013   #73
And here is another one for the list, a Indesign alternative.
I downloaded the free version and it looks and behaves really nice.

http://software.viva.de/english/products/vivadesigner/

It's a German company so quality should be assured.

Jack.
 
Old 09 September 2013   #74
The only real sticking point for me is Photoshop, as none of the other Adobe applications would be my first choice for use anyway. But my choice for replacing the new CC Photoshop is...

Photoshop CS6.

I mean, I already own it, so it's free, it does everything I want it to, I use the same tools that I have for the past 10 years, they haven't changed, in fact the last 2 or 3 updates passed me by completely as I just didn't see what new functionality I was buying.

I upgraded to CS6 because I needed a 64 bit program, I figure as long as I keep a backup of the install disk I'm safe until we develop 256-bit operating systems.

And by then, the machines will be doing the painting...
 
Old 09 September 2013   #75
Originally Posted by Zendorf: @cookepuss, I have heard good things about the FOSS app Aptana for building websites:

http://www.aptana.com/

Would likely be a better bet than Kompozer, but I haven't tried it yet.


Aptana is one of my favorite web editors. It is built on top of Eclipse which is a more general editor. Aptana is focused just on web (although it has access to all the languages under eclipse) The interface is cleaner and generally is a really nice editor. Eclipse (and Aptana) are very powerful and has a wide range of plugins for any language you can think of.

http://www.eclipse.org/

If you are comfortable with hand coding and previewing in a browser then get Sublime text
http://www.sublimetext.com/
PRICE: $79
PROS: is as extensible as eclipse and more. Many color themes. Plugins for every web language you could want to use. Ability to put the curser at multiple locations at once and edit the text at each one simultaneously. the list goes on.
CONS: No WYSIWYG.
 
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