Does Anyone Have a 3D Model of a Woman With Normal Body Proportions?

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Old 04 April 2013   #46
Ultimately, I think it's pretty sad that we live in a world where people are so shallow that you're judged by how you look, and women probably suffer more in this respect than men, because women are invariably judged primarily on looks. Look how even a president of a country, Obama, the other day thought it perfectly okay to comment on an attorney general's appearance. It's so inappropriate but that's how women are constantly judged. Another horrid example of this is the Oscar red carpet ceremony, where the commentary talks about the males' achievements but the females' dresses and hair. But this is a consequence of living in a patriarchal society where women are expected to look pretty for the men. We may have evolved socially somewhat since the days of Mad Men but there's still a lot of inherent sexism around today. Not that men don't get objectified too, but it's a different kind of objectification; men tend to be objectified in positive terms, ie they're seen as strong, powerful, sensitive, etc whereas women are simply reduced to a collection of orifices and boobs.

Sigh.



Women are judged for who and what they are and men by what they do, which can be seen as positive but actually goes back to the disposability of the man and the expectation of self-sacrifice, which propagates into pretty much every aspect of society. most judging and objectifying of women is also by other women.

Its not really better for one or the other to be honest.


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Old 04 April 2013   #47
Here is where it gets interesting. If you are not part of the solution then you are part of the problem? Artists use proportional tricks to tell stories and sell work. Every time you use enhancements you perpetuate deceptive information. Who here has not used smaller heads, thinner waists, longer legs to sell a product? Well not you medical animators but the rest of us are guilty.

and hypocritical?
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Old 04 April 2013   #48
hehe, yeah in the medical community, we go by averages and the most commonly shaped anatomy unless the work is about a specific type/shape. Otherwise, it's considered inaccurate.
 
Old 04 April 2013   #49
Sometimes I thank the heavens Leigh exists.

Originally Posted by tuna: Is this not the world that we have always lived in? Literally a part of human nature kinda thing? Or do you suggest we usurp human nature and bite a stick as we try, with all our effort, to procreate with someone we find physically and socially unattractive?
I take it you mean, as opposed to biting a stick and suffering the patriarchy while procreating with a sexist. Because literally the alternative to 'some people having to not be a sexist' is 'some people having to suffer sexists'.

Originally Posted by Kanga: Here is where it gets interesting. If you are not part of the solution then you are part of the problem? Artists use proportional tricks to tell stories and sell work. Every time you use enhancements you perpetuate deceptive information. Who here has not used smaller heads, thinner waists, longer legs to sell a product? Well not you medical animators but the rest of us are guilty.
I think there is a difference between offering fantasies and offering slices of life, so to speak. Our media is going to revolve around people who are made 'more interesting' - the moral questions is, I suppose, whether any deviation from reality is wrong. To this I say no, so the next question is which deviations are benign and which are troubling. Then there is also the matter of what constitutes 'reality' and whether the norms we have now (for behaviour) should be represented in the work or rather progressive norms.

I think when any artist changes anything it has some moral 'value' based on what it is he changes and why; and what things are right and wrong depend on what value system you have. Any form of art shows a value system.

That said, my trouble with the portrayal of women in media is often that it expects me to not bother identifying with them and sooner jump to objectifying them; and the reverse for men. Though this trend is changing here and there (as any anti-feminist is always soon to point out).
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Last edited by JeroenDStout : 04 April 2013 at 02:52 AM.
 
Old 04 April 2013   #50
Originally Posted by leigh: Would a politician EVER comment on a male politician's appearance like that? No.

In all fairness, yes, all the time.
Attractive male politicians are rare, well, politicians in general given that the average age tends to be fairly high, but especially Obama's looks have been remarked upon by many other politicians, male and female, over the years.

From Berlusconi's rather unlucky comment when Obama won (at the question "what do you think about Obama?" he answered "he's a good looking chap, with a good tan to him", which was probably meant as funny and light hearted, but obviously was interpreted in all kind of ways), to "hottest politician" articles featuring both males and females in popular magazines, to the direct question asked to (or some times the opinion offered freely) female politicians.

If anything should be pointed out in this thread it's how quickly this website seems to be able to take something completely off topic, and into the realm of sociopolitical discussion, and how far even the most insignificant thing can be bounced back and forth until it becomes a human rights debate or close to.
This thread being a prime example of people entertaining different one-sided debates as if they were actually some part of a larger dysfunctional one.

Ironically, the actual question was answered quite early on with several options, the following two or three pages (depending on your forum settings) are pure fluff.
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Old 04 April 2013   #51
Originally Posted by ThE_JacO: If anything should be pointed out in this thread it's how quickly this website seems to be able to take something completely off topic, and into the realm of sociopolitical discussion, and how far even the most insignificant thing can be bounced back and forth until it becomes a human rights debate or close to.
This thread being a prime example of people entertaining different one-sided debates as if they were actually some part of a larger dysfunctional one.

Ironically, the actual question was answered quite early on with several options, the following two or three pages (depending on your forum settings) are pure fluff.


Yes, but this kind of fluff is at least interesting for once.
If it wasn't for the fluff, all that's left in this forum would be about newbie career questions, newbie 3d modeling/rendering questions, product spam, movie trailer discussions, whining about studios closing down.
 
Old 04 April 2013   #52
Originally Posted by ThE_JacO: In all fairness, yes, all the time.
Attractive male politicians are rare, well, politicians in general given that the average age tends to be fairly high, but especially Obama's looks have been remarked upon by many other politicians, male and female, over the years.


And Obama himself compliments other males on their appearance with some regularity (e.g. he introduced HUD secretary Shaun Donovan as “the good-looking guy in the front here.”).

That being said, there is a definite tendency to treat a woman's physical attractiveness as integral to who she is, while a man's physical attractiveness is treated as a secondary feature, and that's not ok.
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Old 04 April 2013   #53
Originally Posted by JeroenDStout: I think there is a difference between offering fantasies and offering slices of life, so to speak. Our media is going to revolve around people who are made 'more interesting' - the moral questions is, I suppose, whether any deviation from reality is wrong. To this I say no, so the next question is which deviations are benign and which are troubling. Then there is also the matter of what constitutes 'reality' and whether the norms we have now (for behaviour) should be represented in the work or rather progressive norms.

Well its death by a thousand cuts really. The end result is the same.

However, the idealization through alteration when depicting people in art has always been there. Personally I like it but in my own work I objectify males and females alike (no gender escapes). I wouldn't like to think that my misrepresentation of women contributes to their objectification, but if we are strict it does, and I do. I think it is funny when people who's business is smoke and mirrors rail against deception because their job is just that. I haven't taken either the red or blue pill, I just know they exist.
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Old 04 April 2013   #54
Originally Posted by leigh: Gah, I don't know why I bother commenting on this on a male-dominated forum. I'm out.


Don't know if you will actually come back Leigh but this male on this male-dominated forum greatly appreciates your comments and thinks they are useful and need to be voiced! So don't think you are alone shouting at a wall.
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Old 04 April 2013   #55
Originally Posted by Whirlwind123: Don't know if you will actually come back Leigh but this male on this male-dominated forum greatly appreciates your comments and thinks they are useful and need to be voiced! So don't think you are alone shouting at a wall.

I'm sure Leigh will outlive the once a year occasion in which me and her are not in full agreement on every single detail of a post, and will appear in threads again
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Old 04 April 2013   #56
off track of the current conversation but alot of the problems with the 3d models looking unrealistic or misproportioned has to do with the symetry issues IMO.
"the uncanny valley effect"

people are not perfectly symetrical from left to right and side to side and it is one of the things that really sets the mind/eyes off that their is something off or wronky with the models.

slight facial offsets and proportion variations really help to make them look alot more real'er and distorted like the rest of us normal peeps.
after all, they are meant to be used as base models,
it is up to the user on what the end result is.
spammed and canned and used with just a dial spin here and there they look fake and are easy to spot and rag on.
but with a little work here and there, the models work just fine as a base, and i have seen some really great stuff come out of poser and DAZ, offset with a ton of really bad on the side true enough.
but there is still no make perfect/normal human software or button yet, thankfully.
an artist is still a pretty important part of the circle.
"yay for us!"
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Old 04 April 2013   #57
I just played God of War Ascension and, aside from the borderline misogyny (headless ladies on pillars, anyone?), the breasts were all fake-looking. Breasts don't have a clean circular line around them, guys. I realize you watch a lot of porno but try and get something right...
 
Old 04 April 2013   #58
Originally Posted by leigh: Ultimately, I think it's pretty sad that we live in a world where people are so shallow that you're judged by how you look...
You dream, but it's not a bad dream.

I started professionally in the 90s when the sexual harassment corporate meetings were in full swing. I already had a solid moral core on how to treat people but with the constant bombardment of how to act, how not to act "or your fired" in the corporate world it basically molded me into an employee that never speaks of such things. Even though living in southern US it is culturally expected to comment on peoples looks, positively of course. I just always deem it inappropriate.

I expect Obama, being from a previous generation, probably goes by an older standard. My coworker, in her late 50s, calls everyone sweety, sugar and other niceties. I could be a jerk about it and tell her to knock it off but its her way. I prefer not to let it bother me.

I used to do a lot of work with the modeling industry and what most people outside the business didn't understand was that fashion models were supposed to be skinny because they were walking coat hangers. Their tiny frames allowed the clothes to hang and drape to show them off better. Society being what it is though, the glamor, the money, calling them super models. It eventually changed everyone's perception so that it became equated with beauty. I watched an old episode of Sesame Street from the 70s and Maria was doing something when Oscar popped out of his can and yelled, "What do you want skinny!" I'd forgotten skinny used to be an insult. I remember calling a few girls that in elementary school.

It seems like a lot of the problems with body image in society today are self inflicted wounds. Just to be clear, I'm not talking about a person, just society in general. This whole conversation is difficult for me because I think everyone obsesses about image too much. Even the doctor, tragic.
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Old 04 April 2013   #59
Originally Posted by Kanga: Well not you medical animators but the rest of us are guilty.

and hypocritical?


Haha! Funny, we were given a "purchased" model for a medical/pharma project we were on from a client who went browsing on turbo squid, first thing we had to do is reduce the breast size to "human", and turn off the lingerie. Its true, female models with realistic-non-porno proportions are few and far between. There are some great roman'esqe models out in the galleries. I laugh every time I see a warrior chick in full armor, and the breasts fully exposed/nude. Awkward.
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Old 04 April 2013   #60
Originally Posted by Kanga: Well its death by a thousand cuts really. The end result is the same.

However, the idealization through alteration when depicting people in art has always been there. Personally I like it but in my own work I objectify males and females alike (no gender escapes). I wouldn't like to think that my misrepresentation of women contributes to their objectification, but if we are strict it does, and I do. I think it is funny when people who's business is smoke and mirrors rail against deception because their job is just that. I haven't taken either the red or blue pill, I just know they exist.


If you idealise something you idealise it towards something. There is a difference in idealising someone as stronger, wiser, more respectable and idealising someone to be more sexually 'available'. The Hawkeye Initiative is an excellent example of how comic books idealise men and women in troubling ways.

People who do smoke and mirrors should not rail against deception, as such, but against ill-formed idealisation. The muscular men of games are idealised in a way to be identified with, the 'bikini armour' women are, I am all but certain, not meant to be identified with. Of course that also creates an attitude of 'super-hetero bro's on the male side.

Recently with the new Tomb Raider game I still wonder how much of Lara's behaviour is meant just to appeal to my 'oh you poor woman' instinct; and I would love a mod of the game which would gender-swap her into a man. A man being portrayed that fragile would be unheard of, as far as I know.
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