Looking at 3DCoat: would anyone who's used it recommend it?

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Old 03 March 2013   #61
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Old 03 March 2013   #62
@Cokepuss probably because I have a rather neutral attitude religiously and in terms of one's rights to do with their software as they choose and care, I can see what you mean, and I agree the issue is getting a bit overstated, but that agreement is on rather personal terms, you can't hope others will do the same if their position in those regards differ.

As the person who originally mentioned, and made sure I posted what was hearsay and what wasn't, how dated it is, and that their pages have been since revisited, I was aware I was poking a hornet nest when I did so, but for the sake of completeness it was worth mentioning.

I appreciate you offering a view closer to 3DCoat than that of those (of us) not involved with their community, and I think you are right in that it's a non-issue from a production point of view.
I think you are doing your side of the debate harm now though by broadening it to personal ethics and, unintentionally I'm sure, seeming like passing judgement on those who hold and apply theirs differently than you do.

You can probably relax a bit and leave your piece to where and what you said before, and it'd have been the best you could for the 3DCoat side of things. People will agree, or they won't, but discussing religion, morals, and how they should intersect between people is just fuel for flames, even if you don't mean it to be.

Let them choose for themselves, I think it's pretty clear by now that the consensus seems to be that Andrew is harmless (to production) these days, and those who will want to find fault with what he does for other reasons should be free to do so. It's not like anybody insofar has sabotaged or antagonized him, everybody has discussed this from a fairly abstract, personal platform when questioning the (old) EULA.
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Old 03 March 2013   #63
Originally Posted by ThE_JacO: I think you are doing your side of the debate harm now though by broadening it to personal ethics and, unintentionally I'm sure, seeming like passing judgement on those who hold and apply theirs differently than you do.

Unintentionally is right. I tend to chase my tail and have, perhaps, made it worse. Oopsie! I deleted a few of my clarifying remarks just to avoid making a weird situation weirder.

Last edited by cookepuss : 03 March 2013 at 11:02 PM.
 
Old 03 March 2013   #64
Originally Posted by mister3d: How would people react if Autodesk had a voice "we support Muslims, so please respect etc"?

If they're selling me products, no that won't have any effects. If they're running election...

There are tons of great, great side-street restaurant run by muslims near my studio. I love them to say the least
 
Old 03 March 2013   #65
We are heading into massively OT territory now but I just wanted to address a few of your apparent misconceptions:

Originally Posted by cookepuss: The thing is, if I based all of my purchases on the ethical behavior of companies, I'm not sure I'd be able to buy anything. No company is 100% ethically clean. Dig deeply enough and you'll find something to challenge, something that offends you morally. Companies are made up of people and people are fallible.

Suppose an Adobe exec made some off the cuff racist statement. Am I supposed to stop using Photoshop? Should I maybe not buy "x" Autodesk product because of something ethically stupid they did? That's not realistic.


That's not really how it works though. One person making stupid comments isn't the same thing as the entire company espousing a certain view or engaging in ethically dubious practices. If we were to judge entire entities by comments made from individuals within them, of course that wouldn't be realistic. But that's not really how people make their ethical consumer decisions. When I go to the supermarket, I'm not concerned with what any particular individual in a manufacturer has done, I'm concerned about how the manufacturer sources their ingredients or parts, and from where, because those are fundamental aspects of that manufacturer's business.

I cannot control others, what they think, or how they conduct their business. I'm only human. As a human, I've got to earn a living.


Of course you can't control them, but you can, as they say, "vote with your wallet". By choosing not to contribute to companies whose values don't match yours, you don't contribute to something you disagree with.

Think about this: How many of you would really opt for unemployment and starvation just to take a moral high ground? How many of you risk the financial stability of your children just to make a point? Much easier said than done.


I've turned down numerous jobs in my time because I didn't agree with some aspect of it, the most recent being a project advertising a clinic that engages in homeopathy and other practices that I consider quackery. I would have no problem working under someone in a VFX studio who happens to believe in homeopathy, but to do a job that actively promotes that type of business is something else entirely, and one that I choose to abstain from on ethical grounds. If I can't even stick to my personal principles, what do I have? That's how I see it. But it's a deeply personal choice and everyone is different.
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Old 03 March 2013   #66
3d coat is the best retopo app on the market...diamant tools is the next best....however 3d coat is best autoretopo on the market by a long way...zbrush isnt close...and the previews of new mudbox tech look interesting. im a big mudbox fan...but it doesnt looks in same ballpark from a cursory view


its texturing is awesome too and it is starting to get good at straight ahead poly sculpting which has been weak for some time in my opinion. the voxel sculpting is amazing and it has saved my ass on numerous projects

also best uv mapping in the industry

cons would be memory problems...it gets slow when you want to smooth meshes for straight poly sculpting and it doesnt yet have multires poly sculpting...but it DOES have multires voxel sculpting


pros IMO are that the creator is equal to pixolator in innovation but more mainstream interface. plus the tools are emminently useable and not arcane with tiny non descript buttons. it has great text tools which saved my ass time and time again for texturing
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Old 03 March 2013   #67
Originally Posted by leigh: Well that's where people like me differ from people like you; for me, my ethics play a huge role in my consumer choices, which is why I only buy cruelty-free products, why I don't buy products from certain countries, and why I won't give my money to someone who behaves in a bigoted fashion. It's not about "raging", as you put it - on the contrary, it's the most non-confrontational, peaceful form of protest: abstinence from participation.


The problem is, in this "modern globalized economy" even maintaining very high standards in regards to one's "ethics" still means not that much. Eating meat is quite non-ethical. Most products boasting "cruelty free" have little meaning in reality.

Speaking for myself, I am a vegetarian bordering on vegan (except for local "green" free range eggs and goat's cheese from a small farm), eat as much locally grown food as I can, stopped buying cotton clothes (cotton is one of the most environmentally detrimental textiles, replaced this with hemp based clothing wherever I can), I do not own a car by choice (again, not very responsible to own a car), do not own any cell phones (extreme waste going on), do not buy any groceries at any of the larger supermarket chains (local family-owned small grocery), try to eat out only in places that are either vegetarian or vegan, do not use any commercial cleaning agents in my life except for contact lens cleaning fluid, walk to my work whenever I can (otherwise public transit), try to avoid packaging materials as much as that is possible (why on earth people don't bring their own shopping bag and keep using paper cups with plastic lids is a mystery to me), do not own a television, limit my purchases severely, avoid purchasing books and rather go to the library, we live in a small 1 bedroom apartment by choice, most of our furniture is second-hand.

Whew. I do own a desktop, laptop and tablet. Stereo speakers. Three screen setup with my desktop. I try not to update the entire machine, but only parts. Parts I no longer need I bring to freegeeks, so the old tech gets either recycled in a responsible way or integrated in second-hand builds. I do own a first generation sony e-reader. The laptop is 7 years old, and I upgraded parts to keep it up to date.

We also fly to Europe once a year, which does have quite an impact on my ecological footprint.

Now, here's the thing: even with my relatively sober western life style, I:
- need 1.5 earths to maintain it with the current population on Earth
- and my material "needs" require about 14 slaves worldwide.

Like you, Leigh, I refuse jobs from companies that do not match up with my life philosophy: I once turned down the Tabacco Company when I was given the opportunity to re-design their entire range of web presence. I refused to do work for online gambling companies.

I am sort of agnostic as well as atheist, as well as Buddhist, and a whole range of different lines of thinking and beliefs mix and mingle dynamically, without ever settling on anything rigid. I have seen my uncles (both general practitioners) practice conventional medicine, and combinations with more alternative approaches (yes, that includes homeopathy an other "heretic" remedies) to heal scores of patients. I hold a firm confidence in a scientific approach, but do realize that a very large portion of scientists are as human as anyone, and rationality is often thrown out of the window when emotions fire up.

I do not even know where I want to go with this. I do know I would rather support one developer who happens to ask people not to use his software for the depictions of porn, child abuse, insulting fellow (wo)men's spiritual convictions, rather than supporting the rich shareholders of a destructive company like AutoDesk. My personal opinion.

Every person that lives destroys and causes the death and misery of others - this is reality, unfortunately. I have no answer or remedy. I think we should try to balance the destruction we cause by trying to create in a positive manner and spread unconditional "love & compassion" towards our selves and others. Which is again extremely difficult to achieve.

As Gandhi once said: "everything you do is insignificant - but it is very important that you do it!".

Look at that: so much I write, yet it really means nothing at all. 'nuff said :-)

Last edited by hvanderwegen : 03 March 2013 at 05:14 AM.
 
Old 03 March 2013   #68
Originally Posted by leigh: We are heading into massively OT territory now but

I understand your point completely and, quite honestly, don't disagree. As you said, it's a personal choice. We each draw a different line in the sand separating what we'll object to out of principle and what we'll tolerate out of necessity.

Like you, I've also turned down jobs because I was taking a stand. I've also had to suck it up and put up with bs on assignments when the paycheck was my primary concern. I do see both sides. For me at least, the line in the sand isn't so firmly drawn. It's more situational than anything else. I think, if I took a hard stance every time, I woudn't be able to eat.

I get what you're saying. I too am fond of voting with my wallet, when feasible. Sometimes, it's the only real voice we have.

FTR, I'm sorry if I offended anybody here. It was never my intention. I can be a bit intense at times, to say the least. I know. If I came off as being too blunt, I'm sorry for that too. Maybe it's a New Yorker thing. Maybe it's just me. Please don't mistake my occasionally insistent and vociferous posts for anything other than passion. I respect each and every one of your opinions and would never intentionally shout you guys down. The last thing I'd want is for there to be bad blood.
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Old 03 March 2013   #69
More than 90% of the intent and emotion of human communication is lost in a forum post - probably the main reason (aside from true trolls who relish in negativity they try to summon) why emotions flare up in a lot of these type of discussions.

No worries! :-)

Originally Posted by cookepuss: I understand your point completely and, quite honestly, don't disagree. As you said, it's a personal choice. We each draw a different line in the sand separating what we'll object to out of principle and what we'll tolerate out of necessity.

Like you, I've also turned down jobs because I was taking a stand. I've also had to suck it up and put up with bs on assignments when the paycheck was my primary concern. I do see both sides. For me at least, the line in the sand isn't so firmly drawn. It's more situational than anything else. I think, if I took a hard stance every time, I woudn't be able to eat.

I get what you're saying. I too am fond of voting with my wallet, when feasible. Sometimes, it's the only real voice we have.

FTR, I'm sorry if I offended anybody here. It was never my intention. I can be a bit intense at times, to say the least. I know. If I came off as being too blunt, I'm sorry for that too. Maybe it's a New Yorker thing. Maybe it's just me. Please don't mistake my occasionally insistent and vociferous posts for anything other than passion. I respect each and every one of your opinions and would never intentionally shout you guys down. The last thing I'd want is for there to be bad blood.
 
Old 03 March 2013   #70
Originally Posted by blade33ru: 3d coat is the best retopo app on the market...diamant tools is the next best....however 3d coat is best autoretopo on the market by a long way...zbrush isnt close...and the previews of new mudbox tech look interesting. im a big mudbox fan...but it doesnt looks in same ballpark from a cursory view


its texturing is awesome too and it is starting to get good at straight ahead poly sculpting which has been weak for some time in my opinion. the voxel sculpting is amazing and it has saved my ass on numerous projects

also best uv mapping in the industry

cons would be memory problems...it gets slow when you want to smooth meshes for straight poly sculpting and it doesnt yet have multires poly sculpting...but it DOES have multires voxel sculpting


pros IMO are that the creator is equal to pixolator in innovation but more mainstream interface. plus the tools are emminently useable and not arcane with tiny non descript buttons. it has great text tools which saved my ass time and time again for texturing


I was considering topogun to go with zbrush, but you may have convinced me to go with 3db now. Upgrade is only $60 for me.

I think ppl are right to vote with their wallet. I'm off to go vote

Keep up the great work Andrew!
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Old 03 March 2013   #71
Where's phil...?
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Old 03 March 2013   #72
Originally Posted by adamdaly: Where's phil...?

Easy now, no need to poke the hornets nest.

Originally Posted by blade33ru: 3d coat is the best retopo app on the market...diamant tools is the next best....however 3d coat is best autoretopo on the market by a long way...zbrush isnt close...and the previews of new mudbox tech look interesting. im a big mudbox fan...but it doesnt looks in same ballpark from a cursory view

Just curious, have you (or anyone) compared 3DCoat to ZBrush lately since QRemesher and the other retopo tools became available. I agree, ZBrush was crap in this department in the past but how about now?
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Old 03 March 2013   #73
Wow. I was wondering what was happening in this thread...

Briefly: No one likes communist regimes, no one likes slave labor; but not many of us (myself included) care about purchasing a product made in China, nor think much about how the diamonds in their rings were attained, and even less about the conditions required to mine rare earth metals found in every single cell phone and handheld device.

Mainly, I think this is because it's far away from us. We don't see it with our eyes - it's intangible in a sense. But religious issues such as is being discussed with 3DCoat - it's more personal, because it's all around us. Limiting what people with beliefs we disagree with - whether those beliefs are strong or casual - is a terrifying path to travel down - one that's been travelled by Germany, Cuba, China, North Korea, and others.

Last edited by LukeLetellier : 03 March 2013 at 10:27 PM.
 
Old 03 March 2013   #74
Originally Posted by LukeLetellier: Limiting what people with strong beliefs say, whether we agree with them or disagree with them, is a terrifying path to travel down - one that's been travelled by Germany, Cuba, China, North Korea, and others.


To me it seems quite those who had very strong believes.
 
Old 03 March 2013   #75
Originally Posted by WyattHarris: Just curious, have you (or anyone) compared 3DCoat to ZBrush lately since QRemesher and the other retopo tools became available. I agree, ZBrush was crap in this department in the past but how about now?

I find them two different things. To be honest, if you already sculpt in ZB, and want a quick retopo to refine somewhere else, QRemesher at this point is so very smooth and solid it's not worth looking elsewhere and introduce fiddly backs and forths.

ZB does still miss UV editing and more point by point options though (or I should say they require jumping through a few hoops with the whole duplicate tool and flatten and lowest subdivision workflow), so if you want the fine control, and don't mind it being outside of Softimage/Maya/Max/Blender/C4D/whatever, and want to mix it with some UV editing in the process, 3DCoat has a stronger and more targeted toolset.

We discourage software comparisons, but in this case, due to feature set, it's a bit apples and oranges, so I think it's fine and not prone to argument to state the above.

Even with licenses of ZB, MudBox, Topogun and UVLayout around quite a few people who knew little of it before decided to do some models (retopo only, that is) with 3DCoat, so it can't be that bad
I would still suggest trying it before choosing, and giving topogun a go as well. Different strokes and all.

For retopo to ease the sculpting process though I have completely fallen in love with how QRemesher feels, and it's literally made me reconsider my position on ZBrush and made me use it at home as well, and I wouldn't give up the single document ease of it for something else.
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