Industries Die and Ang Lee May be Right

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  02 February 2013
Im not afraid of your intimidation DSW.
Yes its R&H managers that failed, and they failed by not managing their business correctly in terms of budgets.
You fire people and change your whole pipeline if you want to stay up.
Did they? does the company still exist?
reformation is the key here, this company didnt reform in time. its not longer than that.
 
  02 February 2013
@gkmotu

Could you please stop your alpha-male behaviour or whatever it is you are doing? Noone is "intimidating" you. Also big strong phrases and "solving problems like a man" is not going to solve this problem.
Some of your ideas have a good point, so don't ruin them with this attitude.
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  02 February 2013
Originally Posted by gkmotu:
snip.

Tama: yes, I will do that in the future. Also mentioned this else where on other thread as a simpular request came up there.
But its not anywhere as bitter as you make it sound luckily We dont talk down to clients, we educate them. See the difference? Education is done to the ignorant, children in school, ever seen a teacher talk down to a kid and see the kid be inspired and motivated by it? I dont hope so my friend, no you talk sense and logic and argument and you even take a fresh debate. Politics. and much much more, but in a positive light.


Never mind, as I surmised you have little to offer but silly talk that you yourself can't back up. Nice to see you equate approaching the client with how you treat ignorant school children and say that debate with a client is part of your master plan to make things better.
 
  02 February 2013
alright Ill try.
But you guys sometimes.

You dont get what I am saying tama. It OK.
 
  02 February 2013



Also try to get the view from the ground troops.
Got to LA, and talk to people who have been recently laid of.

Those who have been jumping from 1099 contract to 1099 contract with no health insurance and with serious job related medical issues.




I mean get the really gritty nasty details, and trust me you will get off that high horse really fast.
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  02 February 2013
It might come down to that I advocate world spread VFX, I will voucher in for a large studio in any country over one in LA, any time.
What you see now is only the beginning.

Last edited by gkmotu : 02 February 2013 at 08:57 PM.
 
  02 February 2013
Honest question here about health insurance. If you are living the lifestyle of jumping between contract and contract, would you not call up Blue Cross or United or Aetna or something and get your own, private health insurance? Is there a reason people don't do this? Is it prohibitively expensive there?
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  02 February 2013
Originally Posted by gkmotu: Im not afraid of your intimidation DSW.
Yes its R&H managers that failed, and they failed by not managing their business correctly in terms of budgets.
You fire people and change your whole pipeline if you want to stay up.
Did they? does the company still exist?
reformation is the key here, this company didnt reform in time. its not longer than that.

Okay.

It's painfully obvious that you don't understand the situation and continue to view this in the most overly simplistic terms without being able (or wanting) to take into account everything contributing to what's been going on in the VFX industry.

But don't worry, if it continues here then you'll see it eventually too.
 
  02 February 2013
Quote: I will voucher in for a large studio in any country over one in LA, any time.


Might I ask why?
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  02 February 2013
Ok here is a fantastic post by Pixelmagic on what is going on..
http://www.reddit.com/r/movies/comm..._oscars/c8l8eg8


Since some people here don't fully understand the situation, I will try to provide some insight.

VFX studios are having a very difficult time making profit on movies they work on, even if that movies goes on to make millions or over a billion dollars. VFX studios make 5% profit on a GOOD year, but most of the time breaking even or even losing money on a job. This in turn has a very negative effect on vfx workers working at those companies. The entire fault does not lie with movie studios or vfx studios, but both contribute to the bad state of affairs in different ways.
  1. The most noticable, is that other countries offer tax subsides that do not allow even competition. If a VFX studio in California bids on work for a set price, then a VFX studio in Vancouver can bid that very same price AND offer a 30-35% (not sure of exact figures) tax rebate on that work, but the VFX studio doesn't get that money, the movie studio does. So they (the movie studio) automatically get 30% of their VFX paid for by tax payers instead of out of their already wealthy pockets. The California VFX studio therefore cannot compete with this situation, so fair competition is impossible.
  2. Low rung jobs such as roto/paint fixes are being outsourced to China and India by movie studios because they can get the work done far cheaper there.
  3. Movie studios put vast pressure on VFX houses to lower costs AND do more work at those costs. They also put huge pressure on VFX studios to open offices in subsidized locales so they (the movie studio) can take advantage of tax breaks. Most VFX studios who refuse or can't afford to offer a subsidized location don't get the work and go out of business. However, movie studios expect the VFX studio to take care of all the costs of moving to the new country themselves. And still have the nerve to ask for cheaper labor.
  4. In addition to movie studios asking for more and cheaper work, they want it done in less time. VFX on a movie used to be 1 year long, and now they are trying to take the process down to 6 months or less. Because of this...
  5. VFX studios often have their staff put in TONS of overtime. 10-12 hour days are a norm, and during crunch time 16 hour days, heck, spending the night at the studio, is not unheard of and in fact common. These horrendous hours can last 3-6 months, 7 days a week. On top of this, several VFX companies are not paying for that overtime, because movie studios refuse to pay for the extra hours (remember they are putting on the pressure for cheaper), even though they have insane deadlines for VFX delivery.
  6. Every other movie trade except VFX has a union to prevent such gross injustices. VFX artists don't have a stable 9-5 full time job. They are just temp contract workers, jumping company to company, project to project. As such, they do not have portable benefits, as other unionized trades in filmmaking do.
  7. Artists are too afraid to speak up against these injustices because they'll just kick you out the door for causing too much trouble, because there are 100 dumb young kids who would jump at the chance to work on a Hollywood movie for peanuts. Without a union, they don't have much leverage.
  8. VFX studios are too chicken to take a stand against the movie studios, because really, they only have about 5-6 clients such as Paramount, Universal, 20th Century Fox, Sony, etc. If a VFX studio stood up to one of these companies about their unfair practices, they'd get black listed as trouble makers and never asked to work again, thus driving them out of business. Likewise, if a VFX worker complains to a supervisor about unfair hours and no overtime pay, he is similarly black listed to not be hired again on the next project.
This is just a handful of problems, but I feel the major ones. VFX artists in Hollywood are treated like shit. VFX artists have a huge passion and love of their skill and trade, and because of it are taken advantage of. It's time for them to stand up and just be treated like decent hard working human beings.
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  02 February 2013
BTW what the studios are doing is called Price Fixing...



In the United States, price fixing can be prosecuted as a criminal federal offense under section 1 of the Sherman Antitrust Act.[1]

Just saying..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_fixing
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  02 February 2013
Originally Posted by Decency: Honest question here about health insurance. If you are living the lifestyle of jumping between contract and contract, would you not call up Blue Cross or United or Aetna or something and get your own, private health insurance? Is there a reason people don't do this? Is it prohibitively expensive there?

For some it is not an option.
I have special needs kids. For private coverage my options are: the insurer won't accept me as a client because its too costly or the coverage plan is outrageously expensive. So I stay were I'm at doing the 8 to 5 at a job I don't enjoy but I can buy coverage on my companies plan.

You may say I should be grateful just to have a job. I am, very much so. But I've been looking for an avenue into the CG world for a VERY long time. Unfortunately, I cannot afford it so I stay in IT and do freelance on the side when its available which isn't very often.

Ugh, this sounds like whining. I'm going to stop.
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  02 February 2013
Originally Posted by leigh: Uh no, I read the whole thing, including the cringeworthy quoting of The Daily Mail, a tabloid with all the journalistic integrity of a Hollywood map of the stars' homes.

What I'm getting fed up with is the constant pot-stirring by people with little to no experience in the VFX industry themselves, because increasingly it's coming across as if the people posting these comments are actually revelling in the misery. Telling people they're too expensive was borderline offensive the other day, and this thread is little more than a long-winded repost of the same sentiment. The only difference is that instead of repeating your "VFX artists get paid too much" comment, you're saying "the clients think you're too expensive". It's the same thing, at the end of the day. General Discussions seems to have become an orgy of misery, being stoked by people who don't even work in the field. It's not that you're not entitled to your opinion, but more a case of you don't really understand how the industry works, let alone the state it's currently in, even though you think you do.

I think I need a break from the forums this evening or else I'm going to snap at someone because this is really starting to piss me off.


I don't get it. You're in the UK. YOU've been out of work for months. Another major studio closing in the UK means less opportunity for you. I would definitely say that gives you a better picture of the industry than I have from over here, but I would also think that would make you better able to see that what I wrote about is happening NOW and not in some far off future.

Originally Posted by DSW: Yeah, it is a problem to some NOW,
but it WILL end up being a problem to MOST later.

If you think this is only relegated to mostly the US, just wait until ALL of the US VFX houses are closed and then the next round of "we want it cheaper" hits the next sets of VFX houses - and so on.


Clearly, I am not alone in my idea of what is coming. Who has a plan in place for this? Who is making any effort to prepare? Who thinks there will be some kind of turn around and that new houses will spring up and wages will go back to what they were?
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  02 February 2013
Originally Posted by WyattHarris: For some it is not an option.
I have special needs kids. For private coverage my options are: the insurer won't accept me as a client because its too costly or the coverage plan is outrageously expensive. So I stay were I'm at doing the 8 to 5 at a job I don't enjoy but I can buy coverage on my companies plan.

You may say I should be grateful just to have a job. I am, very much so. But I've been looking for an avenue into the CG world for a VERY long time. Unfortunately, I cannot afford it so I stay in IT and do freelance on the side when its available which isn't very often.

Ugh, this sounds like whining. I'm going to stop.


No it is not. Thanks for your post.
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  02 February 2013
Originally Posted by Decency: Honest question here about health insurance. If you are living the lifestyle of jumping between contract and contract, would you not call up Blue Cross or United or Aetna or something and get your own, private health insurance? Is there a reason people don't do this? Is it prohibitively expensive there?

Sorry, forgot to say. My point about 1099 jumping is you may just find yourself in a situation where you need to leave the industry and do something else. Needs trump desires.
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