CGTalk > Main Forums > General Discussion
To minimize the ads you see on this page create a CGTalk account and log in HERE
Thread Closed share thread « Previous Thread | Next Thread »
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 02-25-2013, 07:32 PM   #16
leigh
blahblah
 
leigh's Avatar
CGSociety Staff
portfolio
Leigh van der Byl
A cog in the wheel
Hertfordshire, United Kingdom
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 29,776
Quote:
Originally Posted by teruchan
If all you took from my opening post was that I, "think VFX workers get paid too much" then I have to assume you did not actually read it.


Uh no, I read the whole thing, including the cringeworthy quoting of The Daily Mail, a tabloid with all the journalistic integrity of a Hollywood map of the stars' homes.

What I'm getting fed up with is the constant pot-stirring by people with little to no experience in the VFX industry themselves, because increasingly it's coming across as if the people posting these comments are actually revelling in the misery. Telling people they're too expensive was borderline offensive the other day, and this thread is little more than a long-winded repost of the same sentiment. The only difference is that instead of repeating your "VFX artists get paid too much" comment, you're saying "the clients think you're too expensive". It's the same thing, at the end of the day. General Discussions seems to have become an orgy of misery, being stoked by people who don't even work in the field. It's not that you're not entitled to your opinion, but more a case of you don't really understand how the industry works, let alone the state it's currently in, even though you think you do.

I think I need a break from the forums this evening or else I'm going to snap at someone because this is really starting to piss me off.
__________________
leighvanderbyl.com
 
Old 02-25-2013, 07:35 PM   #17
RobertoOrtiz
[Forum Leader]
 
RobertoOrtiz's Avatar
CGTalk Forum Leader
portfolio
Roberto Ortiz
Illustrator/ Modeler
Washington DC, USA
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 31,806
Send a message via MSN to RobertoOrtiz
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPositive
This was told to me by my former student in the gaming industry in text today, so it's hearsay till confirmed. I'm assuming Zygna east, but I don't know as of now.

Go to news...
They closed two offices.
__________________
LW FREE MODELS:FOR REAL Home Anatomy Thread
FXWARS
:Daily Sketch Forum:HCR Modeling
This message does not reflect the opinions of the US Government

 
Old 02-25-2013, 07:39 PM   #18
Panupat
Expert
 
Panupat's Avatar
portfolio
Panupat Chong
Thailand
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,942
Quote:
Originally Posted by gkmotu
(general not you personally)
So deal with it instead of stand and whine and blame everyone else. Tell the client they are uneducated and needs education if you got the balls to do the only right thing.

You need to educate the clients and stand up for your own intergiry which also means not undercutting constantly, demand what you are worth. Dont be so scared, the industry is soaked in underdog mentality, start doing something that matters.

So show me how do I educate Anglee...

FYI I'm in Asia so this problem doesn't really affect me. In fact, if things keep going this way, YOUR work will be sent my way.

Still, hearing his word angered me. Not about the money, but the total disrespect he showed towards production people.
 
Old 02-25-2013, 07:43 PM   #19
gkmotu
Frequenter
 
gkmotu's Avatar
Mads Drøschler
Dishwasher
Denmark
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 163
You start with educating your own clients and maybe some day ang lee will be your client and you educate him if you feel he acts unreasonable.

Panupat I am not afraid of you nor asia, I deal with you daily and its working very good.
Ive also covered this subject in recent posts elsewhere, you and I are more close than you might think.
I ship everything I got down your throat buddy, resistance is futile.

Last edited by gkmotu : 02-25-2013 at 07:48 PM.
 
Old 02-25-2013, 07:54 PM   #20
MrPositive
I got your freakin post
 
MrPositive's Avatar
portfolio
C Positive
3D Art Instructor
Poland
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,158
Send a message via Yahoo to MrPositive
Quote:
Originally Posted by gkmotu
You start with educating your own clients and maybe some day ang lee will be your client and you educate him if you feel he acts unreasonable.

I actually agree with that to an extent, though I don't think it'll be nearly enough. Ang Lee with those comments is either irate over it, lost in translate, or quite ignorant to how much work it takes. Asking for less pay for artists is a big....ugh. I can't believe I read that honestly. I'll never forget when I was at Siggraph and Lucas was describing a day at ILM and he called people the 'water' guy and 'hair' guy. 'I just go in there and tell the 'water' guy we need water for this scene, he hits some buttons and wham, amazing water.' I assume some of it was tongue in cheek, but it does underline a bit how little the uppers care or realize how much it takes to go into this type of extremely high quality art work. And when they don't respect it, that's when work is shipped out to Timbuktu for a rice veggie patty and amazing artists lose their jobs. Ok, that's my last post on the subject today. I'm going to go watch the Avengers.
__________________
Concentrate!

Last edited by MrPositive : 02-25-2013 at 10:38 PM.
 
Old 02-25-2013, 07:55 PM   #21
RobertoOrtiz
[Forum Leader]
 
RobertoOrtiz's Avatar
CGTalk Forum Leader
portfolio
Roberto Ortiz
Illustrator/ Modeler
Washington DC, USA
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 31,806
Send a message via MSN to RobertoOrtiz
He is not...
We are playing a rigged game of poker, and the VFX artists are beign insulted for not winning.


And frankly guys it is INSULTING as hell to the people who worked so hard on his film.

I make a point everytime I am in LA to catch up with my buds in the industry, and frankly they deserve better than this.

And to look forward to the industry to collapse is frankly repulsive.



Anyway reposting from another forum:

An Open Letter to Ang Lee

Reposted with permission:

Dear Mr. Lee,

When asked about the bankruptcy of Rhythm + Hues, the visual effects house largely responsible for making your film “life of Pi” as incredible as it was, you said:

“I would like it to be cheaper and not a tough business [for VFX vendors]. It’s easy for me to say, but it’s very tough. It’s very hard for them to make money. The research and development is so expensive; that is a big burden for every house. They all have good times and hard times, and in the tough times, some may not [survive].”

I just want to point out that while, yes R&D can be expensive and yes it takes a lot of technology and computing power to create films like yours, it is not computer chips and hard drives that are costing you so very much money. It is the artists that are helping you create your film.

So when you say “I would like it to be cheaper,” as an artist I take that personally. It took hundreds of hours from skilled artists and hard-working coordinators and producers to craft the environments and performances in life of Pi. Not to mention the engineers that wrote all of that proprietary code and build the R+H pipeline. That is where your money went. I’d say, judging from the night you just had, you got one hell of a deal.

Incidentally, those were the same gorgeous sunsets and vistas that your DP Claudio Miranda took credit for without so much as a word of thanks to those artists. And the same animated performances that helped win you the best director statue. Nice of you to mentionthe pool crew, but maybe you could have thanked the guys and gals who turned that pool in to an ocean and put a tiger in to that boat?

It was world class work, after all. And after a fabulously insulting and dismissive introduction from the cast of the avengers, at least two of whom spent fully half of their film as a digitally animated character, R+H won for it’s work on your very fine piece of cinema. And just as the bankruptcy was about to be acknowledged on a nationally-televised platform, the speech was cut short. By the Jaws theme.

If this was meant as a joke, we artists are not laughing.

Mr. Lee, I do believe that you are a thoughtful and brilliant man. And a gifted filmmaker. But I also believe that you and everyone in your tier of our business is fabulously ignorant to the pain and turmoil you are putting artists through. Our employers scramble to chase illegal film subsidies across the globe at the behest of the film studios. Those same subsidies raise overhead, distort the market, and cause wage stagnation in what are already trying economic times. Your VFX are already cheaper than they should be. It is disheartening to see how blissfully unaware of this fact you truly are.

By all accounts, R+H is a fantastic place to work; a truly great group of people who treat their employees with fairness and respect. Much like Zoic Studios, the fabulous company that I am proud to work for. But I am beginning to wonder if these examples of decency will be able to survive in such a hostile environment. Or if the horror stories of unpaid overtime and illegal employment practices will become the norm, all because you and your fellow filmmakers “would like it to be cheaper.”

I for one won’t stand for it. Please join me.

Warmest regards and congratulations,
Phillip Broste
Lead Compositor
__________________
LW FREE MODELS:FOR REAL Home Anatomy Thread
FXWARS
:Daily Sketch Forum:HCR Modeling
This message does not reflect the opinions of the US Government


Last edited by RobertoOrtiz : 02-25-2013 at 08:01 PM.
 
Old 02-25-2013, 08:00 PM   #22
DSW
Banned
portfolio
DSW
USA
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 731
Quote:
Originally Posted by gkmotu
MrPositive,
It is a problem to some, not everyone.

Yeah, it is a problem to some NOW,
but it WILL end up being a problem to MOST later.

If you think this is only relegated to mostly the US, just wait until ALL of the US VFX houses are closed and then the next round of "we want it cheaper" hits the next sets of VFX houses - and so on. I'm sure that this is already affecting the VFX studios in other countries as well. This mindset that "VFX are too expensive" isn't just affecting a couple of studio heads. No one will be immune and if you think you will be, guess again. If people don't want to stand up for their fellow VFX artists, then when it comes for you I will have no sympathy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gkmotu
So deal with it instead of stand and whine and blame everyone else. Tell the client they are uneducated and needs education if you got the balls to do the only right thing.

You need to educate the clients and stand up for your own intergiry which also means not undercutting constantly, demand what you are worth. Dont be so scared, the industry is soaked in underdog mentality, start doing something that matters.

Yeah... tell the client they are uneducated and/or educate them on WHY things cost as they do... and then WATCH the client walk out the door. Brilliant. This is a naiive POV. As if this hasn't been tried - as if VFX houses have not tried to explain WHT these FX cost what they cost. Simple ansers for complex problems do not work.

Last edited by DSW : 02-25-2013 at 08:05 PM.
 
Old 02-25-2013, 08:01 PM   #23
gkmotu
Frequenter
 
gkmotu's Avatar
Mads Drøschler
Dishwasher
Denmark
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 163
ofcourse ang lee is ignorant, I cant for the life of me see why this is a problem to grasp.
It is as clear as water.
The R&H lead folks signing contracts are the people to blame, not anyone else in the crew.
I hope that is logic.
 
Old 02-25-2013, 08:03 PM   #24
Tama
Expert
Tony Brighton
Saudi Arabia
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 630
Quote:
Originally Posted by gkmotu
You start with educating your own clients and maybe some day ang lee will be your client and you educate him if you feel he acts unreasonable.

Panupat I am not afraid of you nor asia, I deal with you daily and its working very good.
Ive also covered this subject in recent posts elsewhere, you and I are more close than you might think.
I ship everything I got down your throat buddy, resistance is futile.


Yes, of course what is needed is some form of re-education.
where the paying client can be schooled and talked down to by the service provider.

How about posting a few specific examples of the dialog you would initiate with your client that requires schooling per your specs. I am curious to see how compelling a case you are able to make with this client as I suspect others who frequent this forum are.
Could be a teachable moment for many and your techniques might come in handy.

Please elaborate a bit.
 
Old 02-25-2013, 08:06 PM   #25
RobertoOrtiz
[Forum Leader]
 
RobertoOrtiz's Avatar
CGTalk Forum Leader
portfolio
Roberto Ortiz
Illustrator/ Modeler
Washington DC, USA
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 31,806
Send a message via MSN to RobertoOrtiz
THe problem is that the game has been rigged in favor of the studios.

It has been for a long time.


And if you guys think the misery they have caused in places like LA, London, Canada and Australia, will stop in your country, well you are in for a surprise.
__________________
LW FREE MODELS:FOR REAL Home Anatomy Thread
FXWARS
:Daily Sketch Forum:HCR Modeling
This message does not reflect the opinions of the US Government

 
Old 02-25-2013, 08:07 PM   #26
DSW
Banned
portfolio
DSW
USA
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 731
Quote:
Originally Posted by gkmotu
ofcourse ang lee is ignorant, I cant for the life of me see why this is a problem to grasp.
It is as clear as water.
The R&H lead folks signing contracts are the people to blame, not anyone else in the crew.
I hope that is logic.

If you think that's the primary reason for R&H woes, you do not have a clue as to the situation.
 
Old 02-25-2013, 08:11 PM   #27
Airflow
(212) 555-2368
 
Airflow's Avatar
portfolio
Robert Angol
Head Of 3D
Orchard Post
London, United Kingdom
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,643
Send a message via MSN to Airflow Send a message via Yahoo to Airflow
Some people need to look back to the 20's and 30's when they treated filmstars like commodities, the situation here is exactly the same. Studio execs want you to believe your not worth your pay. I say do whatever it takes to kick up a stink and get their attention.
__________________
*(GOZER)-During the third reconciliation of the last of the Meketrex Supplicants, it chose the form of a giant SLOAR...


MY HMC
 
Old 02-25-2013, 08:19 PM   #28
gkmotu
Frequenter
 
gkmotu's Avatar
Mads Drøschler
Dishwasher
Denmark
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSW
If you think that's the primary reason for R&H woes, you do not have a clue as to the situation.

Those who sign contracts with clients has the responsability to run a company, if not, its the boards fault or CEO. Not beeing able to reform in time in regretful, but its a part of our industry we have to embrace regardless.

Are you telling me that something else than CEO is responsible for any companys budgets and success on an economic point?
Market change? okay...what company outlives by stalling and refuse to change, even if it means fireing people or other things, I think non?


If you cant land a job or continuously land jobs that secure your shop you realy arnt entitled to go on. Its a business, not welfare.

Tama: yes, I will do that in the future. Also mentioned this else where on other thread as a simpular request came up there.
But its not anywhere as bitter as you make it sound luckily We dont talk down to clients, we educate them. See the difference? Education is done to the ignorant, children in school, ever seen a teacher talk down to a kid and see the kid be inspired and motivated by it? I dont hope so my friend, no you talk sense and logic and argument and you even take a fresh debate. Politics. and much much more, but in a positive light.

Last edited by gkmotu : 02-25-2013 at 08:28 PM.
 
Old 02-25-2013, 08:24 PM   #29
mr Bob
CG Sup
Mars
USA
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,322
Quote:
Originally Posted by teruchan

VFX are too expensive just like to design and manufacture a car, entirely in the US or UK is too expensive. VFX are too expensive just like to design, storyboard, layout and animate a 2D cartoon for television, entirely in the US or UK is too expensive. We all know what happened to the western 2D animation industries over the last 30 years. Today you are left with two options, cheap Flash animation, still sustainable in the US or UK, or ship it all overseas.
.


Your argument is flawed, Quality comes at a cost and unless you have the technology and staff with those finely tuned skills your product will be sub par. Quality is where Germany headed post war and amazingly they have a large manufacturing base still , China on the other hand has filled the niche of mass volume manufacturing. An interesting point to note is consumers with money in China, want products with a "made anywhere else" label. Quality still commands value.
 
Old 02-25-2013, 08:26 PM   #30
DSW
Banned
portfolio
DSW
USA
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 731
Quote:
Originally Posted by gkmotu
Those who sign contracts with clients has the responsability to run a company, if not, its the boards fault or CEO. Not beeing able to reform in time in regretful, but its a part of our industry we have to embrace regardless.

Are you telling me that something else than CEO is responsible for any companys budgets and success on an economic point?
Market change? okay...what company outlives by stalling and refuse to change, even if it means fireing people or other things, I think non?


If you cant land a job or continuously land jobs that secure your shop you realy arnt entitled to go on. Its a business, not welfare.

How many VFX companies have closed in the last decade?

How many of the "big houses" in the US are still left?

Do you think that ALL have had poor management?

Perhaps these last few large VFX houses had the BEST management that allowed them to stay open as long as they have. Did THAT ever occur to you? Did you ever think that perhaps these owners have worked their collective as$es off to stay in business and keep everyone employed?

Do you REALLY think that it would just be "bad management" that is responsible for all of this? Couldn't be subsidies? Couldn't be the studios pitting VFX houses against each other? Your response is as if from someone who just came in on the conversation and really know nothing about what has been transpiring the last few years. You are oblivious and think that simple answer will suffice.

It won't.
 
Thread Closed share thread


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
CGSociety
Society of Digital Artists
www.cgsociety.org

Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2006,
Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Minimize Ads
Forum Jump
Miscellaneous

All times are GMT. The time now is 04:09 AM.


Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.