VFX protests at Oscars Master Thread: (VFX Townhall tonight at 7:45PM PST)

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Old 02 February 2013   #31
Originally Posted by teruchan: Trying to assign blame at all is a waste of time. Industries change. Look at cars, shoes, or CD players. Everyone is trying to fight against it, but no one is trying to adapt.


This kind of motivational speaker catchphrase stuff isn't really helping anyone either. Adapt? Really? How exactly are the people who are being laid off meant to "adapt"? When the problem here is one of economics, then there's nothing the average worker bee can do to adapt.

Honestly, all this lecturing from the sidelines is starting to annoy me. It's very easy for you to sit there and tell others how they should feel about losing their jobs, when you're obviously not in this industry yourself. 250 people just lost their jobs at R&H - they have bills to pay, mouths to feed, and they were relying on their skills and profession to support them. Until now, it was working. So don't just sit there casually and throw out catchphrases, because they're not helping anyone.

I apologise if I sound overly snippy here but people who don't work in VFX coming into these threads and telling the rest of us how we should feel is really grating me.
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Old 02 February 2013   #32
Originally Posted by teruchan: Trying to assign blame at all is a waste of time. Industries change. Look at cars, shoes, or CD players. Everyone is trying to fight against it, but no one is trying to adapt.

We're not talking about a new product taking over an older one - this is not the car taking over the horse and buggy industry. This is about the VFX industry being twisted apart by greedy studios. This is about studios wanting to pay less and less for more and more. This is about subsidies taking business away from the areas that would normally have it. It's about cheaper labor. It's not just about subsidies in other countries - hell, we've got the same problems between the states here in the US. "Better subsidies in VT than in NY so we move to VT."

Look at how much these movies are making at the box office and tell me that studios need cheaper and cheaper VFX. How can a Harry Potter movie NOT make a profit? No. Someone is making the money and it's definitely not going to VFX - where MUCH of it is deserved.
 
Old 02 February 2013   #33
1. "I will work for N dollars per hour for X amount of hours" needs to change to:
2. "I will work for M dollars per hour plus Y share of gross profit from this production"

How can we change 1 into 2? That should be an active area of discussion and it is good to see that its starting to happen lately. To me it seems that these protests are trying to address exactly this message. The only thing I hope is that they put a clear-cut message together and don't just do an "occupy Oscars" protest. To be fruitful they need to have a clear message.. something that can be concisely put into a bill form.

M might be lower than N but artists should strive to get a portion of gross profit on top of that.
 
Old 02 February 2013   #34
Quote:

"

With that window of exposure open, some Los Angeles visual effects artists took note of a tweet by former ILM GM and DD Founder Scott Ross:

I had a dream, 500 VFX artists near the Dolby (Kodak) theater on Oscar day waving signs that say “I WANT A PIECE OF THE PI TOO.”

From this, Twitter, Facebook, email groups, blogs all started buzzing about actually doing that, looking for a way to protest at the Oscars to bring visibility to the issues. What issues? We go back to Scott Ross who followed up with this tweet:

Message is simple: VFX artists create incredible images that translates into huge box office. BUT, VFX companies are going out of business.

New twitter accounts like @VFXSoldarity have started speaking out and visual effects artist David Rand has been working with a group looking to get media attention by flying a banner over the awards – - a plane flying a banner reading “BOXOFFICE + BANKRUPT = VISUAL EFFECTS VFXUNION.COM will be in the skies over the awards – you can follow those activities and learn of additional meet ups at @vfxunited."

http://www.fxguide.com/quicktakes/v...rotestatoscars/
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Old 02 February 2013   #35
Visual effects workers plan Oscar flyover protestQuote:
"
Ang Lee's acclaimed 3-D movie "Life of Pi" is a front-runner to win a top visual effects award at the Oscars.

But some of the people who worked on the film's dazzling visual effects aren't celebrating. In fact, they're planning to stage a protest to call attention to their own plight -- and that of California visual effects workers in general.

A group of visual effects workers has arranged to have a plane fly a banner over the Dolby Theatre in Hollywood during the red carpet Academy Awards pre-show to protest their circumstances.

The banner will read: "box office + bankrupt = visual effects vfxunion.com." That's a reference to the recent bankruptcy filing by Rhythm & Hues. The El Segundo studio also laid off 250 employees, prompting a class-action lawsuit from one former employee alleging the workers were not given proper notice."

http://www.latimes.com/entertainmen...0,2940036.story
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Old 02 February 2013   #36
Originally Posted by leigh: But on the other hand, I'm getting a little tired of people who don't even work in VFX constantly posting and telling those of us who do how we should feel about our jobs falling apart.


Leigh, Sometimes its just better to let the clueless carry on.
 
Old 02 February 2013   #37
Personally I think it's a great thing (the plane banner), and fantastic to see people doing things above the speculation. These are some clearly keyed in people, highlighting to the public the issues we are All mostly facing. Public pressure has always been a great mediator in change.
 
Old 02 February 2013   #38
Originally Posted by leigh: ...
But on the other hand, I'm getting a little tired of people who don't even work in VFX constantly posting and telling those of us who do how we should feel about our jobs falling apart.


I get the impression that those who cause studios to fail aren't working for the vfx industry too.

Still for those who are interested in outsider views, I think vfx studios must find a way to be more than plain vfx studios. Like Disney/pixar and ILM with their own IP's maybe.
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Old 02 February 2013   #39
http://vfxsoldier.wordpress.com/201...vine-1pm-430pm/

VFX Oscars Demonstration: Hollywood & Vine – 1pm –*4:30pm

A demonstration to raise awareness for Visual Effects Professionals has been scheduled:

Hollywood Blvd & Vine St.
1pm – 4:30pm
Parking can be found here*or you can take the Metro Red Line.
A plane (yes, a friggin plane!) with a VFX message will circle the Oscars 3:30 – 4:30pm
You can follow vfxunited or hashtag #vfxprotest on twitter.

There’s a Facebook event page also.

Big thanks to everyone getting involved and putting this together. One person who has stood out in their efforts is Dave Rand who not only paid for a plane to circle the Oscars but was also able to get a ton of major media coverage for the event:

FXGuide: Visual Effects protest at Oscars
LA Times:*Visual effects workers plan Oscar flyover protest
Deadline Hollywood: VFX Pros To Stage Oscar Protest
Hollywood Reporter: VFX Community Planning Protest During Oscars
TV News outlets have been notified also.

There is no requirement to bring anything but there have been some excellent and funny ideas for protest signs and imagery you can print out if you are interested (If you have others email me and I’ll post them.):

#vfxprotestsigns
https://twitter.com/tvaziri/status/...4649472/photo/1
https://twitter.com/mark_wilkins/st...6073729/photo/1
https://twitter.com/tvaziri/status/...9499138/photo/1
Be safe, be courteous, be concise and on point, and best of all, have fun.

Soldier On.
 
Old 02 February 2013   #40
Originally Posted by leigh: This kind of motivational speaker catchphrase stuff isn't really helping anyone either. Adapt? Really? How exactly are the people who are being laid off meant to "adapt"? When the problem here is one of economics, then there's nothing the average worker bee can do to adapt.

.. SNIP ..

I apologise if I sound overly snippy here but people who don't work in VFX coming into these threads and telling the rest of us how we should feel is really grating me.


Of all people, I think Teruchan did hit the right point. Maybe it was his previous experience that he choose the word "adapt" instead of fix. Because, *we* (as a hobbyist and also not an American - I'm not included - but still, capitalism is everywhere) never really try to fix it.

It happened before in printing (guttenberg days) but hey, it doesn't affect us.
It happened before in factory production (cloth and toys) but hey, it doesn't affect us.
It happened to Wallmart workers, but hey, it doesn't affect us.
It happened before in car manufacturing, but just like above, it only affect blue collar worker, it doesn't affect us.
It happened in IT (oursourcing and HB1 visa?) but hey, those are technical, we are ARTIST!
http://siliconvalleyresources.com/j...current-economy
Besides, source code is a small file unlike 3d animations! LOL!
(Trust me, I already have this conversation back then, even way way before Lucas Art open up in Singapore [we wish it was in Kuala Lumpur], or R&H open up here]. The reason was that I'm a hobbyist both in game programming and 3d animation. Game Brains [Bibby Bret] open up here so I understand about programming job outsourced a lot. And trust me, a lot of people are so proud about being technical, being artist, about being full of ideas, about not everything can be out sourced, blah blah blah).

Now that this mentality struck vfx, I think the word "adapt" is a good thing because seriously, its already too late to fix it.

Actually, I'm about to write a rant about America importing scientist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wernher_von_Braun) and claiming all the credits, thinking themselves as great and all that. But I think it's too late. But truth be told, a lot of time have passed since 2001 till now, and most of the attitude back then was "Only Americans can do this! Our job is secure!".

12 years is a long time to set up trade unions and what not, and follow the writers strike example and what not. A lot longer if we count all the way to Toy Story days.

But no one does.

So adapt is the keyword here, and Teruchan was right all along. I think he wrote an ebook on his past experience which was a good read (if I got the identity right). I think he also sees this going to happened back then.

But as a 3rd worlder dabbling in game programming and 3d animation as a hobby since 1995(?) I knew this going to happens back in 2001.

So I understand about long jobs and all, having family to take care and all, and being too late to be given "self help rah rah".

But when programmers are losing jobs left and right to outsourcing and low salary foreigners on B1/H1(?), did all of you people ever think about it will happened to you and doing something about it?

Last edited by fablefox : 02 February 2013 at 11:29 AM. Reason: grammar
 
Old 02 February 2013   #41
Originally Posted by BrainFreeze: 1. "I will work for N dollars per hour for X amount of hours" needs to change to:
2. "I will work for M dollars per hour plus Y share of gross profit from this production"

How can we change 1 into 2? That should be an active area of discussion and it is good to see that its starting to happen lately. To me it seems that these protests are trying to address exactly this message. The only thing I hope is that they put a clear-cut message together and don't just do an "occupy Oscars" protest. To be fruitful they need to have a clear message.. something that can be concisely put into a bill form.

M might be lower than N but artists should strive to get a portion of gross profit on top of that.



That will never happen. Most studio contracts, even for directors, actors and producers, is for a X amount and a net profit of the movie. Problem is the studios play with the numbers and then claim the movie never had a net profit. That's why Peter Jackson had to sue to get the rest of the money he was owed from Lord of the rings. The above the line people on a film know they will never see money from the profit so they go for the most they can up front. That's what makes the budget so high for name actors.
 
Old 02 February 2013   #42
Originally Posted by leigh: This kind of motivational speaker catchphrase stuff isn't really helping anyone either. Adapt? Really? How exactly are the people who are being laid off meant to "adapt"? When the problem here is one of economics, then there's nothing the average worker bee can do to adapt.

Honestly, all this lecturing from the sidelines is starting to annoy me. It's very easy for you to sit there and tell others how they should feel about losing their jobs, when you're obviously not in this industry yourself. 250 people just lost their jobs at R&H - they have bills to pay, mouths to feed, and they were relying on their skills and profession to support them. Until now, it was working. So don't just sit there casually and throw out catchphrases, because they're not helping anyone.

I apologise if I sound overly snippy here but people who don't work in VFX coming into these threads and telling the rest of us how we should feel is really grating me.


I worked in VFX for years. I have been laid off 4 different times. The last time I was laid off, I decided to try something different. I ADAPTED. That's why I am here. Far from being clueless, Mr. BOB, why are my old bosses in Hollywood contacting me trying to get work done over here? Why are my colleagues from before asking what it takes to get here and what kind of work is available? You'd be SURPRISED how many calls, mails, IMs I get saying, "Dude, you got out at the right time." or "You had the right idea. Did you see it coming?"

Sitting around and complaining never accomplished anything.
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Last edited by teruchan : 02 February 2013 at 01:17 PM.
 
Old 02 February 2013   #43
Originally Posted by fablefox: Actually, I'm about to write a rant about America importing scientist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wernher_von_Braun) and claiming all the credits, thinking themselves as great and all that. But I think it's too late. But truth be told, a lot of time have passed since 2001 till now, and most of the attitude back then was "Only Americans can do this! Our job is secure!".

That's a rather dour view of the situation. Have you ever been to the US? Our univeristy system is top notch, and we have some of the largest corporations in the world. And our government shells out the big bucks on defence and science grants. Who wouldn't want to work here? This isn't DPRK. People are free to come and go as they please.

I've worked with dozens of people who are here on the H1 visas, and they were all great people who were here to make a better life for themselves.

As far as the protest goes, I wish them well. Maybe they can snag some national attention.

-AJ
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Old 02 February 2013   #44
Originally Posted by teruchan: I worked in VFX for years. I have been laid off 4 different times. The last time I was laid off, I decided to try something different. I ADAPTED.


So... your idea of the VFX industry needing to adapt is to have everyone quit and do something else?

Because that would definitely save the industry /sarcasm
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Old 02 February 2013   #45
Originally Posted by AJ1: That's a rather dour view of the situation. Have you ever been to the US? Our univeristy system is top notch, and we have some of the largest corporations in the world. And our government shells out the big bucks on defence and science grants. Who wouldn't want to work here? This isn't DPRK. People are free to come and go as they please.

I've worked with dozens of people who are here on the H1 visas, and they were all great people who were here to make a better life for themselves.

As far as the protest goes, I wish them well. Maybe they can snag some national attention.

-AJ


Sorry if it sound too dour, while I haven't been to US, I have a lot of family members that does. However, I converse with a lot of Americans on the forum. Not to sound like conspiracy theorist here, but it seems that there is quite a lot of half truth, white wash and wrong info being thrown about just to make it look great. One of the most famous was how Neil Degrasse Tyson talk about how Bush was wrong on the naming of stars. I understand a lot of goverment will try to frame thing up to their advantage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_jG5kKfacY

But lets get past that.

The point is that when I talk to a lot of Americans over the internet back in the 2001 regarding 3d animation and out sourcing if it will happen just like game dev / it industry was that "we are so awesome nobody else can do our job" attitude, and belittling everyone else, including "artistic can't be outsourced".

Well, now we have what we have now.

EDIT: And the fact that I put Von Braun link was that for a time US try to minimize his contribution, but I forgot where I read it, although my memory says it was Wikipedia. The reason was that Von Braun was a Nazi, so it sound bad to say that the greatest mind that allow us to put a man on the moon was a Nazi. But much much later he was considered as "father of rocket science". "His crowning achievement was to lead the development of the Saturn V booster rocket that helped land the first men on the Moon in July 1969".

EDIT V2: And when I said about American importing scientist and claiming the credit, it actually to an effect of what Neil Degrasse TYson said in one of his videos. I think it was due to the nationalities of scientist involved in the Manhattan project. Even Einstein was a German born, and if you read the wikipedia, US was his 5th citizenship. He was talking about education system, science, NASA, and what not. And the fact that Fermi Lab(?) was closed and all scientist involved in High Boson all went to LHC. And what will happen when all these people stays in their country or other country that is focusing more on science / education.

Getting back on topic, a lot of people that come to the US and return home improve local industry. And that was the start of out sourcing.

Last edited by fablefox : 02 February 2013 at 02:48 PM. Reason: little fact
 
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