25 fps but not smooth like Hollywood

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  02 February 2013
Originally Posted by Thn: With focus entirely on the perceived smoothness of an animation, I just created two better versions of the same (ugly) animation. Based on exr's and with motion blur added in Nuke. The difference is quite apparent, the 25 fps version disturbs the eye whereas the 50 fps version is much more pleasing - just like the animations from the great studios, again I'm only talking sheer motion - how things move on the screen in a relaxed manner.

That's at least partly because doing motion blur in 2D using motion vectors produces linear motion blur. So if you have something rotating (like a propeller), the motion blur will be along the tangent, not in a circle. It never looks right, but sometimes it is not so noticeable. Try rendering it with real 3D motion blur instead.

I find 50 fps quite jarring when watching video. I saw the Hobbit in 48 fps, and I'm not sure if I liked it. I'm so used to seeing films in 24 fps.



Originally Posted by Daniel-B: Since most 3D applications represent motion blur in intergers instead of shutter angle, the equivalent would be a 0.5 motion blur setting.

Nitpicking: That's a float, not an integer.
 
  02 February 2013
Captainobvious, when you say real 3D motion blur, I guess in 3DS max and mental ray it must be object motion blur, not image or mental ray HDR blur. I'll give it a go and see if this does something good for my 25fps animation.
 
  02 February 2013
I think you analyse this too much in terms of technical parameters.

The smoothness you refer to may well come down to good design. The models, the layout, the animation, the lighting and editing, the interplay of all these things together with the motivations that are demanded by the story.

It's a result of the art of movie-making. The technicalities of rendering are just a fraction of it.
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  02 February 2013
Originally Posted by Thn: Captainobvious, when you say real 3D motion blur, I guess in 3DS max and mental ray it must be object motion blur, not image or mental ray HDR blur. I'll give it a go and see if this does something good for my 25fps animation.

I honestly have no idea. In most 3D software, you just turn on motion blur and get accurate blur.
 
  02 February 2013
Hmm, changing the way motion blur is applied doesn't make a difference - as I also expected. It's all about something else, I need to figure out if I'm just crazy or something. Within the next 3 days I'll create a 50fps version of a real animation I recently did, then I will see if it's better than before. I'll post the result here.

Mic-ma, I realize the art of animation is a complex thing, the end result being the sum of doing it right at many levels. Though - there are certain basic technicalities that you need to master in order to make a satisfying end result, to make convincing art. And this thing with animations not running smooth is basic stuff that carries everything else.

I wonder if I'm the only one who can see the difference between the last two examples I uploaded?
 
  02 February 2013
I see a difference between the 2, but the 25 fps doesn't look especially jerky to me. Looks like anything I'd see on tv or in a movie, frame rate wise.
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  02 February 2013
Youre wasting your time writing those long posts, at least dozen people here told you to turn on 3d moblur, not some fxcking image/object blur from 1990's. Are you sure youre seeking advice here?
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  02 February 2013
Interesting. I find the 50 fps much more organic and natural to look at. The 25 fps tires the eye, have you seen them full screen?
 
  02 February 2013
Originally Posted by CaptainObvious: Nitpicking: That's a float, not an integer.


Ha! You got me there.
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  02 February 2013
Originally Posted by PiotrekM: Youre wasting your time writing those long posts, at least dozen people here told you to turn on 3d moblur, not some fxcking image/object blur from 1990's. Are you sure youre seeking advice here?

Well, I'm quite sure it's not related to motion blur, the insight I'm after, but I am curious: what is 3D motion blur, is it core Mental Ray knowledge I just never ran into?

Last edited by Thn : 02 February 2013 at 07:22 PM.
 
  02 February 2013
Smile

Originally Posted by Thn: Well, I'm quite sure it's not related to motion blur, the insight I'm after, but I am curious: what is 3D motion blur, is it core Mental Ray knowledge I just never ran into?


uhhhh, yes you could say thats core MR knowledge

--

finally someone who wants to get to the bottom of the of the "hollywood magic" aka "smooth playback secret" its about time! have you tried to render it with 100fps, drop every 2nd image, convert it to 50fps interlaced, before deinterlacing and timewarping it to 24fps? did that help?

seriously i really love these kind of threads! keep 'em coming
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  02 February 2013
Originally Posted by derOesi: uhhhh, yes you could say thats core MR knowledge


finally someone who wants to get to the bottom of the of the "hollywood magic" aka "smooth playback secret" its about time! have you tried to render it with 100fps, drop every 2nd image, convert it to 50fps interlaced, before deinterlacing and timewarping it to 24fps? did that help?



seriously i really love these kind of threads! keep 'em coming


Whoa, Stephan, glad to have response from someone who knows what I'm getting at, before this thread turned into a discussion on motion blur.

Took a look at your stunning work - and of course your animations have this smooth "Hollywood" feel to them, or in your case: "Hamburg" feel. Masterly

Actually, yesterday it struck me that what annoys me is related to the progressive display of frames. I found a few mentions of this, others being frustrated with 25fps progessive. See http://www.pjfilms.com/2010/02/converting-25p-into-50p/

I must say this is new territory for me, and it's absolutely vital I see. I'll have to read up on it and do some tests.
Here I thought it was just about creating beatiful frames, making 25 fps with some motion blur and that would be it, but there is more to it.

My I ask how many fps do you render at first? And is the endresult after compositing/editing interlaced or progressive frames?

/Thomas

Last edited by Thn : 02 February 2013 at 02:25 PM.
 
  02 February 2013
thomas, i'm sorry i think you misunderstood my (well lets say dry sarcastic) post, but most of what the people here try to tell you is true. Its the missing or incorrect motionblur you have in your clips. rendering it at 50, 100 or 1000 frames/second wont change anything when your target medium just plays 25fps. It all depends on your shutter settings of your 3D motionblur. (enable it, set the shutter to 0 - 1 and try again)

interpolating your footage from 25 to 50fps only makes sense if you have something to play it on.

one thing to remember is: 24/25fps is not always perfectly smooth, even in the real world thats why 48/60fps is eventually (or probably) getting the new standard...

,best
stephan
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  02 February 2013
@derOesi: I'll be honest, your first post sounded like shit to me (as in not true) but you really gave no indication that you were being sarcastic, especially when you added the 'seriously' part at the end. To someone unfamiliar with this stuff it would be all to easy to believe what you had said, which is exactly what happened.

Sarcasm is hardly ever understood on the internet, DRY sarcasm is even worse.


@Thn: I watched your 25fps video first, and honestly saw nothing wrong with it. I think this might really just be a matter of you over analyzing things. Especially comparing to a 50fps video. 25 vs 50 will never ever look the same, no matter what kind of things you do.

Look in to proper 3d/cg motion blur as others have suggested and see if that helps.
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  02 February 2013
i didnt expect a line like

"....render it with 100fps, drop every 2nd image, convert it to 50fps interlaced, before deinterlacing and timewarping it to 24fps?"

could be have taken seriosly , my bad (as i already posted).
i'd like to leave it to that and hope the OP got his answer(s).
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