CGTalk > Main > General Discussion
Login register
Thread Closed share thread « Previous Thread | Next Thread »
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 02-11-2013, 03:56 AM   #1
RobertoOrtiz
[Forum Leader]
 
RobertoOrtiz's Avatar
CGTalk Forum Leader
portfolio
Roberto Ortiz
Illustrator/ Modeler
Washington DC, USA
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 32,026
Send a message via MSN to RobertoOrtiz
Behind the Scenes the Japanese Animation Industry (And it is Nasty Stuff)

Quote:
"A typical 30 minute cartoon requires over 3,500 pages of drawing and takes three months to make. Sometimes as much work goes into a 10 second action scene as five minute conversation scene in which there is little movement except for the mouths. Japanese animators are known for putting in long hours, often 12 hours a day, including weekends. Before deadlines they are known for not leaving their studios and sleeping under their desks.

Japanese artists are trained in two-year courses at high-tech schools like the Nippon Engineering College. After graduating they get jobs in Japanís anime studios. To cut costs Japanese anime producers are farming out work to South Korea. China and the Philippines. Poor pay and long working hours has resulted in the migration of workers to more lucrative jobs in the video game industry and a shortage of talent.


People employed on the anime industry are poorly paid. One survey found that those in their 20s earn only about $11,000 a year while those in their 30s earn only about $21,400 a year. Even, skilled veteran artists in their 40s and 50s earn only about $30,000 a year. Nearly 50 percent have no contacts and 40 percent have no healthcare coverage"

http://factsanddetails.com/japan.ph...20&subcatid=135

EDIT Thanks to celshader for the heads up!
(Hi Jennifer!)
__________________
LW FREE MODELS:FOR REAL Home Anatomy Thread
FXWARS
:Daily Sketch Forum:HCR Modeling
This message does not reflect the opinions of the US Government


Last edited by RobertoOrtiz : 02-11-2013 at 05:05 AM.
 
Old 02-11-2013, 09:13 AM   #2
Panupat
Expert
 
Panupat's Avatar
portfolio
Panupat Chong
Thailand
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,942
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertoOrtiz
Quote:
People employed on the anime industry are poorly paid. One survey found that those in their 20s earn only about $11,000 a year while those in their 30s earn only about $21,400 a year.

That's a very luxurious pay if you work in Thailand.... $4,000 a year is very normal for entry level animator position.
 
Old 02-11-2013, 09:20 AM   #3
hypercube
frontier psychiatrist
 
hypercube's Avatar
portfolio
Daryl Bartley
vfx goon / gfx ho
hypercube
Los Angeles, USA
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 4,050
Can we get a post about puppies and bunnies or something?

Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit anti-depressants.
 
Old 02-11-2013, 01:33 PM   #4
Dillster
Always Learning
 
Dillster's Avatar
portfolio
Dylan Saunders
Dublin, Ireland
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,670
That's poor pay for Japan. I have been there twice competing in karate tournaments and all the parents were grumbling about how expensive everything was. I can't see $21k going very far over there.
__________________
I like to learn.
 
Old 02-11-2013, 01:50 PM   #5
Darkherow
Expert
portfolio
W Lee
United Kingdom
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 689
There's one thing I don't get is, I'm pretty sure that Anime artists now have a union to go to. It's the Japanese Animation Creators Association-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japane...ors_Association

http://www.animenewsnetwork.co.uk/n...train-animators

Plus they ran schemes to provide financing recieved by the Japanese Government, for studios and train new talent in 2010 and 2011, the new talent get to work on short films with the studio's senior staff training them on the job. The short films screened early 2012 in Japan.

More on the 2010 shorts-
http://www.animenewsnetwork.co.uk/n...raining-project

More on the 2011 shorts-
http://www.animenewsnetwork.co.uk/n...raining-project

More on the Screening-
http://www.animenewsnetwork.co.uk/n...railer-streamed

The Japnaese government knows that the anime industry is being affected by sending work out to other asian countries and are spending to train new home talent. I think the Japanese Animation Creators Association is still running but I can't read Japanese so I don't know what they have on their official website(anyone want to translate)-

http://www.janica.jp/index.html

They are a union for Japanese anime artists, so why aren't they unioning up to get better pay? Unless I'm missing something.
 
Old 02-11-2013, 02:03 PM   #6
noouch
Smooth Like Hollywood
 
noouch's Avatar
portfolio
Niko Conte
Munich, Germany
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,151
Send a message via ICQ to noouch
Quote:
Originally Posted by hypercube
Can we get a post about puppies and bunnies or something?

Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit anti-depressants.


Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmW-ScmGRMA
__________________
This should take less than a few minutes.
 
Old 02-11-2013, 02:47 PM   #7
teruchan
Skeleton Man
 
teruchan's Avatar
portfolio
Terrence Walker
The Last King
of Scotland
Shanghai, China
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 893
How old is this article? They've been saying the same things since I was last there, at that was in 2002! I think some things have changed by now. Salaries, unfortunately, are not one of them. The DVD market has dwindled considerably, though, and I think rentals are nearly dead due to online.

Also there is no mention of studios experiments with online distribution, not that any found noteworthy success there. I am glad they made mention of the new indie scene happening in Japan. I think that is where the future will be found.

Jumping down to the end I see the article is a few years old and simply updated recently. That is good.
__________________
Terrence Walker
Studio ArtFX
Learn How to Make Your Own Animated Projects!
You don't need millions of dollars or major studio backing!!
 
Old 02-11-2013, 04:38 PM   #8
Tama
Expert
Tony Brighton
Saudi Arabia
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 638
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dillster
That's poor pay for Japan. I have been there twice competing in karate tournaments and all the parents were grumbling about how expensive everything was. I can't see $21k going very far over there.


It is poor pay but it also depends on where you are living in Japan.
You don't have to live in the large cities/prefectures to work in them.
Most gaijins when first visiting Japan typically complain about the high costs there.

And who the hell expects to be paid anything more than grunt wages for filling in cells?
Probably those who have been following their dream...
 
Old 02-11-2013, 04:51 PM   #9
Tama
Expert
Tony Brighton
Saudi Arabia
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 638
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertoOrtiz
Quote:
"A typical 30 minute cartoon requires over 3,500 pages of drawing and takes three months to make. Sometimes as much work goes into a 10 second action scene as five minute conversation scene in which there is little movement except for the mouths. Japanese animators are known for putting in long hours, often 12 hours a day, including weekends. Before deadlines they are known for not leaving their studios and sleeping under their desks.

Japanese artists are trained in two-year courses at high-tech schools like the Nippon Engineering College. After graduating they get jobs in Japanís anime studios. To cut costs Japanese anime producers are farming out work to South Korea. China and the Philippines. Poor pay and long working hours has resulted in the migration of workers to more lucrative jobs in the video game industry and a shortage of talent.


People employed on the anime industry are poorly paid. One survey found that those in their 20s earn only about $11,000 a year while those in their 30s earn only about $21,400 a year. Even, skilled veteran artists in their 40s and 50s earn only about $30,000 a year. Nearly 50 percent have no contacts and 40 percent have no healthcare coverage"

http://factsanddetails.com/japan.ph...20&subcatid=135

EDIT Thanks to celshader for the heads up!
(Hi Jennifer!)


No healthcare coverage, in Japan? Really?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health...system_in_Japan

Totally affordable to pay for on your own.
Many employees in Japan have no "business paid for" health insurance.

The 2D animation biz has been a lousy occupation even here in the states.

I had a neighbor in Los Angeles who worked as an artist, cell painter for a couple of the big name cartoon creators in the 40's, 50s and 60's and she had nothing nice to say about her experience. She was also dying from cancer that she believed she contracted from exposure to the various paints, inks and solvents that she used.

Follow your dream?
Might just be a nightmare in disguise...

Last edited by Tama : 02-11-2013 at 06:17 PM.
 
Old 02-11-2013, 06:36 PM   #10
Celshader
Python Person
 
Celshader's Avatar
Jennifer Lynn Hachigian
CGFX/Pipeline
USA
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 637
Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tama
And who the hell expects to be paid anything more than grunt wages for filling in cells?


First, cel painting is hard work. Not everyone can do it successfully.

Second, I thought digital ink-and-paint replaced cels in traditional animation. Do cels still exist in modern anime productions?

Third, the article suggests that these are the top wages given to designers, board artists and animators drawing key character poses. The late Satoshi Kon may have received a pittance for his stunning storyboard work. I would have expected Ghibli artists to make more than $30,000/year for drawing Arrietty.
__________________
Python is my smashing board.
 
Old 02-11-2013, 07:25 PM   #11
Tama
Expert
Tony Brighton
Saudi Arabia
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 638
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celshader
First, cel painting is hard work. Not everyone can do it successfully.

Second, I thought digital ink-and-paint replaced cels in traditional animation. Do cels still exist in modern anime productions?

Third, the article suggests that these are the top wages given to designers, board artists and animators drawing key character poses. The late Satoshi Kon may have received a pittance for his stunning storyboard work. I would have expected Ghibli artists to make more than $30,000/year for drawing Arrietty.


- Yes, I am sure that it is hard work. And?

- I am aware that it is done digitally, I use the term "filling" but I could have been more specific.

- And yes, those artists are not paid very much. Lots of people chasing few jobs
makes it work out that way esp. in Japan where the average folk do not make wonderful wages eking out a living. I have lived and worked in Japan over the past 35 years and that is what I have seen. Fortunately my occupations there were not arts related.
 
Old 02-12-2013, 03:13 AM   #12
AangtheAvatar
Banned
portfolio
Aang Airbender
Air Temple, USA
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 194
Quote:
nime auteur Makoto Shinka was a pioneer of the new indie anime model in Japan. He created his first anime short, She and Her Cat, entirely on his own, from photographs he took and imagery drafted on the computer tools that were available in 1998. He then wrote, directed and produced his first feature-length anime, Voices from a Distant Star, on his Apple Power Mac G4. Shinkai told me in New York last year that his goal as an artist was to tell his audience, "You will be OK"--a particularly urgent sentiment in the wake of increasing calamities, he said, not just in Japan, but worldwide. [Ibid]


Quote:
This Boy Can Fight Aliens,


Quotes from the article. Looks like a silver lining.

I would like to know more about the indie animation scene in Japan and how to get into it.

Teruchan can you elaborate? I know you've been in that market. Or anyone else? Any ideas?
 
Old 02-12-2013, 03:45 AM   #13
ThE_JacO
MOBerator-X
 
ThE_JacO's Avatar
CGSociety Member
portfolio
Raffaele Fragapane
That Creature Dude
Animal Logic
Sydney, Australia
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 10,954
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celshader
First, cel painting is hard work. Not everyone can do it successfully.

AFAIK nearly anyone could.

Back when it was still all acrylic on acetate they were already offsetting (locally) and outsourcing (to SE Asia) the colour by the dots work, and a lot of it would end up with house wives and pregnant women with absolutely no art education, only requirement was a steady hand, so the top CV requirement was for skills such as seamstresses had and so on (precise manual work and dexterity).

Cells from a lot of anime would also be moved in stashes and then sold relatively cheap, and because of how cheap this was and how easy it was to offset, photocopies of the acetates would be brought home by some of the inkers and handed out to the family for a quick paint, then sold as if they were original for even less (and that's how desperate they were for money).

That's how easy the colouring was in the 80s and early 90s, since it was largely flat fill-in.

We're not talking Disney's complex rendering and early use of digital here, you are literally talking about filling the back of a transparent sheet with photocopied ink with diluted acrylic paint. It was paid in cents per sheet.

Unless you talk a hero cell of a very prominent franchise or film, you could get a full frame shot of a protagonist of a fairly popular series for peanuts (I have a handful actually, and not one of them costed more than 40$ back then, some as little as 8$, and they were that "pricey" because certified, and imported to the other side of the world).

Not that it matters much anymore, but for the sake of fun facts and all
__________________
"As an online CG discussion grows longer, the probability of the topic being shifted to subsidies approaches 1"

Free Maya Nodes
 
Old 02-12-2013, 01:45 PM   #14
RobertoOrtiz
[Forum Leader]
 
RobertoOrtiz's Avatar
CGTalk Forum Leader
portfolio
Roberto Ortiz
Illustrator/ Modeler
Washington DC, USA
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 32,026
Send a message via MSN to RobertoOrtiz
The funny this is that they had to form a labor union

he Japanese Animation Creators Association (JAniCA) is a labor union representing workers in the Japanese animation industry. The group was formed back in June 2007 as a non-profit organization dedicated to raising the living standards of workers in the anime industry including livable wages.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japane...ors_Association


Here is the irony of the reaso nthey had to do this...

JAniCA is the first labor union to be formed for the Japanese animation industry since anime production began. On October 15, 2007 over 500 animators gathered together to announce the formation Toyoo Ashida Among the other creators who spoke at the October 13 press conference were director Satoshi Kon, animation director Moriyasu Taniguchi, Tokyo University graduate school professor Yasuki Hamano, editor Nobuyuki Takahashi and animation director Akihiro Kanayama.[2]
In June 2008 the union was legally incorporated as an Unlimited Liability Company intermediary corporation to further continue improving the work conditions in the Japanese animation industry.[3]
In 2010 JAniCA launched their "2010 Young Animator Training Project." The animation labor group received 214.5 million yen (about US$2.27 million) from the Japanese government's Agency for Cultural Affairs, and it distributed most of those funds to studios to train young animators on-the-job during the year. One of the reasons for the support of the Agency for Cultural Affairs is the concern that more of the Japanese animation process is being outsourced overseasóthus leading to a decline in opportunities to teach animation techniques within Japan. In 2011 the Agency once again provided funding for JAniCA to select more young training projects under the same budgets

And here is more on the subject:

Labor Group: Animators in Their 20s Earn US$11,600 a Year (Updated)

A symposium was held in Tokyo last Friday on the working conditions of the anime industry in Japan. The Japan Animation Creators Association (JAniCA), a labor group established by directors, animators, and other animation staffers, held the symposium to discuss the results on its survey on the workplace. According to the symposium, young anime staffers in their 20s earn an average annual salary of just over 1 million yen (US$10,500), and the industry is not training a big enough talent pool for its needs.

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2009-05-24/labor-group/animators-in-their-20s-earn-us$11600-a-year
__________________
LW FREE MODELS:FOR REAL Home Anatomy Thread
FXWARS
:Daily Sketch Forum:HCR Modeling
This message does not reflect the opinions of the US Government

 
Old 02-12-2013, 02:35 PM   #15
teruchan
Skeleton Man
 
teruchan's Avatar
portfolio
Terrence Walker
The Last King
of Scotland
Shanghai, China
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 893
Quote:
Originally Posted by AangtheAvatar
Quotes from the article. Looks like a silver lining.

I would like to know more about the indie animation scene in Japan and how to get into it.

Teruchan can you elaborate? I know you've been in that market. Or anyone else? Any ideas?


Well the part of the article you quoted pretty much tells you how to do it. He made something really cool on his own and they came to him. That's pretty much what worked for me too. Because of Understanding Chaos, most of the good deals I ever got came to me. Soubi did things a little differently. She finished her full length video first, even working on it while she was still in school. That way works too, though it is more difficult if you have to do something while keeping your day job or finishing school. (I was working in EA and did Chaos on nights and weekends. I don't think I could do that today.)

TOKYOPOP paid me an advance so I could work on the stuff full time. Comix Wave did the same for Shinkai. I am sure Soubi, whose second film is already out actually, can work full time on her stuff too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThE_JacO
AFAIK nearly anyone could.

Back when it was still all acrylic on acetate they were already offsetting (locally) and outsourcing (to SE Asia) the colour by the dots work, and a lot of it would end up with house wives and pregnant women with absolutely no art education, only requirement was a steady hand, so the top CV requirement was for skills such as seamstresses had and so on (precise manual work and dexterity).


Exactly. Cel painting and inbetweening is grunt work. In the office in Shanghai we had a whole 2D team doing both on Japanese and US show. I saw them working on Thundercats even! They were all kids. Some looked not even old enough to have graduated yet. They get about $0.50 (50 cents) per drawing. Background painters get about $15 per drawing.

If you had all your designs and layouts in place, think of how cheap it would be, from a numbers standpoint, to get your whole show done here! I was in Fujian once and there was this studio claiming they could do an anime show for 2000 RMB per minute. That's just over $300 (three hundred dollars) per minute!

Their line quality and drawing looks the same as anything out of Japan. As to why a majority of original Chinese productions don't look this good, I can only guess that is due to the lack of design and layout being done for them by the experienced Japanese artists and directors, but that is whole other thread.

As to labor unions and all that, there really is no excuse for the wages in anime. All this talk of the industry struggling does have some falsity to it. The publishers aren't struggling. The TV channels aren't struggling. The merchandizers aren't struggling. Some of them are making millions, or hundreds of millions, off this stuff. The money is not trickling down to the animators who actually make the stuff.

Go back to the thread about the death of Veggie Tales. Many anime creators have the same problems. They are in it for the love. They don't sign good contracts. They often get no royalties whatsoever. The publishers or toy companies pay them a tiny flat rate to deliver a show and then they run off and make millions on it. Sales of some manga have doubled, tripled and even quadrupled because the anime came out. That money all goes into the publisher's pocket and the animators don't see a dime. They accepted their flat rate and that was that.

Did you know that most directors, even some famous ones, are normal salaried staff at the studios where they work?
__________________
Terrence Walker
Studio ArtFX
Learn How to Make Your Own Animated Projects!
You don't need millions of dollars or major studio backing!!
 
Thread Closed share thread


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
CGSociety
Society of Digital Artists
www.cgsociety.org

Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2006,
Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Minimize Ads
Forum Jump
Miscellaneous

All times are GMT. The time now is 05:06 PM.


Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.