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Old 02-08-2013, 06:39 AM   #61
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Nice huff post article

Now that I have some time to read the huff post article...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david..._b_1909449.html

Yeah, its something like that....
 
Old 02-08-2013, 07:02 AM   #62
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Angry

Don't have the time to multi quote here, but I think I have to address certain point.

Someone is saying that once you graduated and if you are not good enough or clueless, its your fault.

So, you are basically saying that people who paid around $30,000 (from that huff post article) and spending time in traffic jams going to class, and spend even more time at class and at home doing assignment, if they are not good enough to get a basic job, its their fault?

So, what is a school supposed to be doing after you paid them $30,000. Seriously? If after paying that you actually have to buy your own book, your own hardware, your own software, your own video tutorial, and learn things on your own. It sound like certain college over here where they take your money and didn't teach you anything at all.*

It sound like that particular huff post article.
"there are only nine employees servicing the students that are being recruited by an admissions workforce of almost 1600"

I think up to certain level, a college have to take responsibility to a certain level.

*Long story short, it just sad that a graphic college don't even have a tablet, and wasn't listed under Autodesk college at student.autodesk.com, even in 2012. A student actually have to go through all kind of admission and student id scanning to be able to download the educational software (student not having .edu email is a problem on its own. since a lot of purchasing education version of software requires that).

In short, I think a college have to take responsibility to a certain level.

My 2 cent.
 
Old 02-08-2013, 08:58 AM   #63
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Oh this thread. It's probably a good thing I just found it. I wonder how far I can go till I get a private lecture. Hmmm...Where to start with the falsehoods. First off, a lot of people/students don't know that along with my sculpture degree I also concurrently received a degree in History. I believe I graduated with 75 students that also received History degrees. Do you know how many of those individuals do a damn thing in History now? 2 (according to the recent alumni magazine).
First off, I'm sick and tired of CG people thinking that going to college is A----> B give money---> get job, and that's all there is to it. But that's not what really pisses me off. It's these continual comments I repeatedly see, 'these teachers/schools promised me a job'. First off, if nobody ever got a job, then the school would eventually become a ghost town, it's just that simple. Frankly, some students (more than people think and especially lately if you are willing to go anywhere) are getting jobs and if it was just the confidence they got from some teacher, student, or whatever connected to the school, then I say Who Gives a Shit. If that's what that respective person needed to give them a fighting chance at their dreams then they got what they wanted out of it. Secondly, this one really drives me into a fit, 'teachers of 3D art have never worked in the industry and therefore suck'. Now that's a two parter folks. Let's dissect the first section shall we. In the past few years I have worked with almost exclusively individuals that came from the industry of 3D, one has worked on over 25 films. You may say, 'well why would he leave working on those amazing films'!? How stupid of him! I'll tell you straight up why. Security and less work. That's it. Security: you'd have to drive a truck through a school to lose your job (and you still may not). Less work: I probably work about 50% less than my students that have gone off to industry. In fact, I think those that haven't at least tested the waters of teaching 3D art at some point to see if they like it, have a slight masochistic characteristic (but of course, I also think that those that teach over 10 years in this field are even worse, but I digress), but that's just my opinion. Lastly, just because you didn't work in the industry also doesn't automatically inherently mean you are a meat popsickle at teaching either.
Now, are there some hacks that teach 3D and can my experiences cover everybody's situations? Of course there are some terrible 3D art instructors (and schools) out there but it's waaay less than people think from my 14 years of experience. Ponder this. If you are a 3D art instructor with on average 100 students in all your classes combined. Several of those students are simply going to be pretty phenomenal through incredible intelligence or elbow grease or whatever. It's not going to take those students long to sniff out that you are a total piece of dung water. And I've seen it. The majority of the rotten bastards are eventually exposed and disposed. It's also not 10 years ago when the field was saturated with wannabe 3D teachers who were either moved over from other departments like music or given a fast track to teaching to make the school a buck. There have been ample improvements across the board on all areas but people still want to reiterate the exact same things without any evidence or research to back it up. What I think is more likely, is the students that never put any effort in, nor had enough passion or drive in the field, infiltrated the internet in conglomeration of despair to blame everyone but themselves in their ultimate failure.
But, if I were to point a finger at a problem, it would be the for profit cg art school that is charging far too much money for an education. But the problem here is if you killed off some of the horrific for profit schools then you'd have to kill off the great ones as well like Gnomon. It simply isn't going to happen in my opinion. Saying that however, the prospective student has options. The prospective student has the internet to research other schools and scams. Hell, they have cgtalk that has a dedicated 'Courses and Schools' section that does nothing but try to help people make the best choices for themselves (and some times the advice given is to not attend school at all depending on the situation). In the end, it comes down to the responsibility of the individual to protect his own future. Unfortunately, many people are lazy, want a fast ride to the top, and then can't believe they are a 100 grand in debt after they didn't research any other schools (when there are many that would be a quarter the cost and a better education than a for profit), nor put any time into their work, and are still sitting at the mall. Ok, I'm going to go take a breath and drive a car through a building.
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Last edited by MrPositive : 02-13-2013 at 12:58 PM.
 
Old 02-08-2013, 01:40 PM   #64
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The thread seems to be diverting into politics, it would be nice of we can stick to the original question. If I remember correctly it was on the subject of schools taking responsibility for teaching courses to more students than there are jobs for.

On careers day last year in school, they had all the college recruiters and the information leaflets on the tables. I picked up one for CG artists (there were actually several different ones) and on journalism. Both leaflets gave the impression that there are plenty of jobs with excellent prospects in both industries. These leaflets were printed in early 2012 when everyone and his dog knew long before that nothing could be further from the truth.
That's the real issue here. Lack of full and proper information about job prospects at the critical stage when students are just ready to decide what to do in college, and which affects their career prospects forever.
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Old 02-08-2013, 02:25 PM   #65
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One of the biggest problems is that weak courses continue to exist. People say that courses that aren't that good will just dissappear due to lack of students but this isn't the case because there are continual unsuspecting people who go to the courses, believing they are getting a good education. Schools aren't going to shut these courses down cause they are making money. I believe that weak courses needed to be weeded out and I believe that there needs to be data showing how many graduates get into jobs and how much they are earning, so that underachieving courses can be pointed out.

I believe it's true that the student does have some responsibilities to how well they perform, however I believe that lecturers are accountable to what is taught, how it's taught and the content of the course. It's unreasonable to just say graduates are solely at fault for not being able to get a job in the animation or film or game industry, when the lecturer haven't taught anything that can get them there. How can graduates stand a chance of getting a job in the industry?

I keep hearing, maybe the student should have self learned in their spare time and not rely on the course content, then why are they paying for the massive amount of tuition fees. Instead of going on the course, they might as well have just looked on the internet or went to the library and not be in financial debt.

It is fair to say that not everyone is able to become say an animator but I find that lecturers are accountable and responsible to identify such individuals and tell them, it's not really for them and continuing with the course won't really benefit them. This allows students to decide whether to continue and find what's right for them. However in the real world, I continue to see some lecturers know your work is bad but continue holding onto the weak students because mainly they are paying for the course, they need the number of students to attend and they can mark the best students higher. Unfortunately some institutions care more about the money than students and generally by the time the student understands that their work isn't up to industry standards, it's too late as they spent the time and money already, their only chance is gone.

Last edited by Darkherow : 02-08-2013 at 02:46 PM.
 
Old 02-08-2013, 02:31 PM   #66
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Anyone saying it's all on one entity or the other just isn't being realistic.

I attended 2 schools, in one I saw people succeed despite the classes and program, and in one I saw the classes and programs help the students succeed. There's a huge difference.

Obviously in both cases the student worked hard, but if you're paying tuition and you find that you're learning more in the computer labs from other students than you are from your classes or instructors, something is wrong.

And I disagree that if the program is bad it will fail financially. The Art Institutes are a perfect example of this not being true. Of course they vary from place to place, and I mean no disrespect to anyone working there, but I've heard from countless people how weak the CG program is there, and yet they are wildly successful. The students that work really hard, and learn from their peers, then graduate and get a job without much help form the school, and in turn make the school look better.
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Old 02-08-2013, 03:28 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkherow

I keep hearing, maybe the student should have self learned in their spare time and not rely on the course content, then why are they paying for the massive amount of tuition fees. Instead of going on the course, they might as well have just looked on the internet or went to the library and not be in financial debt.



In my opinion, there will NEVER EVER be a school that gets you a job off the time spent in a class room alone. If you are not putting in ample amount of time outside the classroom then you will fail regardless of whether you are at Animation Mentor and being taught by Pixar instructors solely. And let me tell you, we've had 12 students attend AM and only 3 have full time animation jobs. That's students that are getting trained by world class professionals, but most likely thought that fact alone meant they would get hired. 'Hey, I'm instructed by the lead animator at Sony Dreamworks, therefore I don't have to bust ass at all'. Wrong, and welcome to debt just like anybody else. This is why some people have bipassed going to school altogether on their way to the industry. And also why I said that attending college shouldn't just be about getting a job. It should be about self development, increasing education in all general areas, confidence, socialization, networking, etc. Some people are extremely mature and don't need it, but some do. Like I said before, if you are going to a CG school and think for a second that just going to the classes will automatically get you hired, then you've already failed yourself. The best CG school's goal in the classroom really can only be a few things: speed up the process of development in CG art to a professional level, structure projects, provide equipment and software that might otherwise be difficult to acquire, bring together like minded individuals, etc. But in my opinion, you could have 20 of our CG Choice Gallery people teaching you, and if you don't give a damn, it won't amount to a hill of beans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael5188

And I disagree that if the program is bad it will fail financially. The Art Institutes are a perfect example of this not being true. Of course they vary from place to place, and I mean no disrespect to anyone working there, but I've heard from countless people how weak the CG program is there, and yet they are wildly successful. The students that work really hard, and learn from their peers, then graduate and get a job without much help form the school, and in turn make the school look better.

The Art Institutes are a difficult one to peg honestly. One second they are hiring a former ILM modeler and the next a student who just graduated. Their transition is insane and that isn't necessarily a good thing. However, I've seen some amazing work posted on cgtalk from AI grads including Borderlands 1 and 2 art by former AI grads. One school can be quite successful while another is gawd awful. However, I do think they are ridiculously expensive but as was said before, don't go there then. Research and find smarter options. It isn't rocket science people.
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Last edited by MrPositive : 02-08-2013 at 04:03 PM.
 
Old 02-08-2013, 03:36 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPositive
In my opinion, there will NEVER EVER be a school that gets you a job off the time spent in a class room alone. If you are not putting in ample amount of time outside the classroom then you will fail regardless of whether you are at Animation Mentor and being taught by Pixar instructors solely. And let me tell you, we've had 12 students attend AM and only 3 have full time animation jobs. That's students that are getting trained by world class professionals, but most likely thought that fact alone meant they would get hired. 'Hey, I'm instructed by the lead animator at Sony Dreamworks, therefore I don't have to bust ass at all'. Wrong, and welcome to debt just like anybody else. This is why some people have bipassed going to school altogether on their way to the industry. And also why I said that attending college shouldn't just be about getting a job. It should be about self development, increasing education in all general areas, confidence, socialization, networking, etc. Some people are extremely mature and don't need it, but some do. Like I said before, if you are going to a CG school and think for a second that just going to the classes will automatically get you hired, then you've already failed yourself.


Ok we get it but you're taking his comment and leaping all the way over to the other extreme.

All some of us are saying is it shouldn't be all up to the students. Wearen't saying going to school should automatically get you a job, but if the school isn't helping you in any way, and you're learning more from online tutorials than class, then the school is not doing its job. I'm sorry, it's not. Building confidence and social skills is not sufficient for the tuition you're paying.

Networking and whatnot in school is priceless, but I also learned a ton about animation in school that probably would have taken me much much longer to learn on my own. Don't discredit the actual learning of relevant, CG specific information in school.
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Old 02-08-2013, 03:40 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael5188
Ok we get it but you're taking his comment and leaping all the way over to the other extreme.

All some of us are saying is it shouldn't be all up to the students. Wearen't saying going to school should automatically get you a job, but if the school isn't helping you in any way, and you're learning more from online tutorials than class, then the school is not doing its job. I'm sorry, it's not. Building confidence and social skills is not sufficient for the tuition you're paying.

Networking and whatnot in school is priceless, but I also learned a ton about animation in school that probably would have taken me much much longer to learn on my own. Don't discredit the actual learning of relevant, CG specific information in school.


If you can do it without school, then don't go! If the school is worthless, quit. All I and any of my friends that got degrees in history, psychology, traditional art, sociology, general ed was a degree. None of us do a thing in those fields now. Would those same people say it was still worth it? You better believe it. That's the way of academics. Only in the computer fields did I suddenly start seeing people think they were owed something for their money after they graduated. I got a slap on the back and never heard from the school again. But it most certainly changed me for the better and vaulted me on to bigger and better things personally and academically....just elsewhere.
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Last edited by MrPositive : 02-09-2013 at 03:01 AM.
 
Old 02-08-2013, 03:43 PM   #70
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Great post.
I really liked this part:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPositive
....I said that attending college shouldn't just be about getting a job. It should be about self development, increasing education in all general areas, confidence, socialization, networking, etc. Some people are extremely mature and don't need it, but some do. Like I said before, if you are going to a CG school and think for a second that just going to the classes will automatically get you hired, then you've already failed yourself.

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Old 02-08-2013, 03:59 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPositive
If you can do it without school, then don't go! If the school is worthless, quit. All I and any of my friends that got degrees in history, psychology, traditional art, sociology, general ed was a degree. None of us do a thing in those fields now. Would those same people say it was still worth it? You better believe it. That's the way of academics. Only in the computer fields did I suddenly start seeing people think they were owed something for their money after they graduated. I got a slap on the back and never heard from the school again. But it most certainly changed me for the better.


Everyone expects something for the money they spend in school, it's just in most fields that something is a diploma. If everyone went to school for an "experience" and that was it, people wouldn't go to school, they'd go backpacking across Europe.

Some people can't do it without school, some people just aren't built to teach themselves, so for those people they need a good program. Now as far as if it isn't good then leave, well I completely agree. I dropped out of a school cause of that very reason. But that doesn't change my original point. The school should provide an education in what they say they are providing an education in.

To give bad schools a free pass by saying students shouldn't expect to be prepared for a career in school is, in my opinion, kind of ridiculous to say.

Again, I'm not putting all the blame on schools. Students should do more research and figure out what they really want out of school. But I'm also not willing to say we shouldn't expect anything of schools other than providing a location to socialize and grow as a person.

edit- and this, " It should be about self development, increasing education in all general areas, confidence, socialization, networking, etc." doesn't have to conflict with actually learning about your craft. Plenty of schools accomplish both.
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Old 02-08-2013, 04:10 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael5188
Everyone expects something for the money they spend in school, it's just in most fields that something is a diploma. If everyone went to school for an "experience" and that was it, people wouldn't go to school, they'd go backpacking across Europe.


I respectfully disagree. I think reading, writing, art, etc. at a high cerebral level is a lot different than backpacking across Europe. Nevertheless, it's not just about those characterisitcs I mentioned. I used that degree for other opportunities in school, obviously. Lastly, I don't think anybody wants 'bad' schools to get a free pass. I just think it's beyond overblown, as if nothing has improved in 15 years or there isn't a current movement to try and improve things. Nobody needs a school to get hired in CG so people are going for a myriad of reasons. I just think it's mind bogglingly to pin that reason on just getting hired in CG alone. There are so many options now, hell I put together a list of like a 100 schools that teach CG now. Surely, one can be found that is a nice fit. Just don't trot down to the local AI, sign up, give your money and think that you did everything possible to succeed and they screwed you, after the fact. In the end, even though nobody would ever admit it apparently, they screwed themselves to a large extent.
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Old 02-08-2013, 04:19 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPositive
I respectfully disagree. I think reading, writing, art, etc. at a high cerebral level is a lot different than backpacking across Europe.


Ah fair point, you're right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPositive
Nevertheless, it's not just about those characterisitcs I mentioned. I used that degree for other opportunities in school, obviously. Lastly, I don't think anybody wants 'bad' schools to get a free pass. I just think it's beyond overblown, as if nothing has improved in 15 years or there isn't a current movement to try and improve things. Nobody needs a school to get hired in CG so people are going for a myriad of reasons. I just think it's mind bogglingly to pin that reason on just getting hired in CG alone. There are so many options now, hell I put together a list of like a 100 schools that teach CG now. Surely, one can be found that is a nice fit. Just don't trot down to the local AI, sign up, give your money and think that you did everything possible to succeed and they screwed you, after the fact.


I mean I agree here. Honestly the school I dropped out of might have had a bad animation program, but I am more than happy to have gone there. I met countless amazing people, learned a huge amount in different artistic mediums, and look back on that time fondly.

And yes I also think there are good programs out there and a lot of new schools are getting things right. I was never saying it's impossible to get a job without school or that it's impossible to find a good school. Honestly I was just talking about the point- who is responsible for receiving a good education in school. And I believe both parties, the school and student, are responsible. It isn't all up to the school to cram knowledge into your head, but it isn't all up to a student to, in their spare time, actually learn. (though learning more in their spare time never hurts) Both should be putting forth an effort.
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Old 02-09-2013, 12:14 AM   #74
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The only time schools should be accountable is when they exaggerate employment figures for graduates (in the field they have studied). I have seen schools really stretch the boundaries on what constitutes 'graduates gaining employment in area of study or related field'. It's not right to make people think they can walk into a job when that isnt the case, but by the same token, i was told by an industry professional that 5% of us would end up doing the job we really hoped to do or were working towards. That just made me work harder and harder to achieve my goals. 2 years later i was doing my dream job at the studio i had really set my hopes on. It's not impossible if you are willing to work for it (although of course a but if luck helps too)
 
Old 02-09-2013, 01:01 AM   #75
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This is a subject that I was thinking about alot about 6 weeks ago and came to what I think was a really good solution.

Get rid of student financial aid. Really this is the only way. The federal government needs to stop loaning money to students to go through college.

What needs to happen in it's place is, colleges themselves need to start loaning the money to the student. Students then pay it back to the college directly, in a very forgiving setup, like a student only has to pay 2% of their income for 10 years, then that is it. If the college fails to produce students that produce enough money for that small amount to sustain the college, then the college will fail to produce money and it will fail. This is the only way I can conceive of to make a college accountable for the quality of it's education based on real world dynamics, do the students of this college actually make good money from leaning what the college taught them? I see no other way to test if that is true, and thus if a college problem is valid, other than to actually make the colleges income dependent on their students income.

Right now colleges have no accountability, any charismatic fool with a reasonable enough qualification can set up a scam school and scam kids through, pumping out useless degrees, with no drawback, no accountability. It's basically a free-for-all for what institution can put together the biggest load of bullshit to lure in the most kids to suck federal student loans out of them. With zero accountability put on the institution. All the accountability is put on the kids who really do not know better at the age of 18. Then if they get sucked into a scam school and don't realize it quick enough, the kid is out $60,000 and having to work at a grocery store, while the institution is using that nice chunk of money to produce more scam marketing materials to repeat the cycle.

I really think this issue is way bigger than just the education system, as our entire culture and economy rests on the quality of education, and the quality of education has gone to shit because there is no accountability on the institutions themselves. If we made it so colleges only got back a small percentage of a students income for 10 years after graduating, and that was the only income a college got, any program that was not producing valuable skills in students would go bankrupt. Colleges and teachers would have to take alot more care in selecting student, and alot more care in teaching them, the quality of your program and teaching would be directly related to whether or not your program survived. Really I think under this setup alot of institutions would go under, because scam schools have become a rampant problem.

Also for anyone saying 'the individual needs to be held accountable for themselves, not the education system', I think this is wrong because your basically dealing with kids. Kids don't know how to be fully accountable for themselves, there still being educated, they don't even know how to discern a scam school from a non-scam school. Lets put all the accountability on the kids but have the institutions themselves have zero accountability? That is screwy. How about setting up a system that attempts to help the young instead of just feed off them like disposable batteries?

Last edited by techmage : 02-09-2013 at 01:05 AM.
 
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