At what point do we hold the schools accountable?

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Old 02 February 2013   #16
4 Year engineer program: $12,000
Starting salary: $75,000
Chance of employment: 80%

4 year 3D program: $65,000+
Starting salary: $30,000
Chance of employment: 20%

The way I see it something does need to change.
 
Old 02 February 2013   #17
Originally Posted by badsearcher: slogging through six years of architecture school only to find that I didn't have the passion necessary to make it as an architect.


That's also the rub. Sometimes it takes time to realize you may not be as passionate about something as much as is necessary to succeed at it. Unfortunately, the creative field is a talent based business (and even that doesn't always apply). A talent based business is extremely tough and requires not only a thick skin, but a real passion to move forward and continue when others say you can't and there is always someone better than you, possibly competing with you as well.

Those with "intestinal fortitude" will have what it takes or will have the strength to adapt and move forward or move on. Occasionally I see a fraction of creative talent with this attribute. They are the ones worth fostering and nurturing their confidence and abilities. The others should be burned through as quickly as possible, so they can move on and find their true passion quicker.
 
Old 02 February 2013   #18
Originally Posted by badsearcher: Something I've wondered about for a really long time is at what point should schools be challenged for continuing to churn out new 3d artists?


Huh?

Animation isn't the only over-saturated field with shaky job opportunities. You can't start holding schools accountable - it's up to individual people to make informed decisions about their education for themselves. At the end of the day, out of a graduating class, there are going to be some students, a minority sure, who do find work - so why hold the school accountable for the rest that don't? At the end of the day, this is a highly competitive field and it's the students who put in the most effort who are most likely to succeed after graduation.

This scapegoating culture we live in today is really disheartening. People need to take responsibility for themselves instead of blaming their failures on everyone around them.
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Old 02 February 2013   #19
Originally Posted by Lars3D: 4 Year engineer program: $12,000
Starting salary: $75,000
Chance of employment: 80%

4 year 3D program: $65,000+
Starting salary: $30,000
Chance of employment: 20%

The way I see it something does need to change.


That's not 100% true. I see more 4 year graduates from engineering making maybe $50k to start depending on the industry and location. The engineering programs in the US seem to run $50k-$100k+ depending on where you go to school. Also, several engineering professions require further education and licensing to continue to move upward in salary and responsibilities.

I've told my kids, the only college educations that seem to really have a significant ROI are medical, business management, marketing or law. Everything else seems to have a much smaller rate of return for the investment and likely debt.

Last edited by XLNT-3d : 02 February 2013 at 05:08 PM.
 
Old 02 February 2013   #20
I really think schools have a responsibility to let students know the prospects of getting a job, and this should be done at the stage when the college open recruitment day somes around each year. This has been a big issue in media colleges for people studying journalism and press photography. Newspapers are rare as hens teeth now and the surviving ones have cut journo staff to the bone and are not employing photographers. They get as much information and photos as possible for free and usually poached from the Internet. A high % of press articles are recycled from other articles and not original or properly researched according to standards taught at college.
In spite of all that, most media colleges are still churning out the same numbers of students as they were 10-15 years ago. I live right beside a media college (which also does CG courses) and I know a lot of people who had to go back to different colleges and study completely different courses after the reality of no work in newspapers or radio hit home.

Last year almost 200 lads and girls left that college looking for work in the newspaper industry. Apparently only about 15 got work, and all of that is part time or freelance basis.
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Old 02 February 2013   #21
Huh?

Animation isn't the only over-saturated field with shaky job opportunities. You can't start holding schools accountable - it's up to individual people to make informed decisions about their education for themselves. At the end of the day, out of a graduating class, there are going to be some students, a minority sure, who do find work - so why hold the school accountable for the rest that don't? At the end of the day, this is a highly competitive field and it's the students who put in the most effort who are most likely to succeed after graduation.

This scapegoating culture we live in today is really disheartening. People need to take responsibility for themselves instead of blaming their failures on everyone around them.


A thousand times THAT! It always amazes me the amount of people who have a four degree and end up doing something completely different. I can't even tell you how many times I've heard the phrase "So wait ... You're actually USING your degree?!" Also, if you think CG is over-crowded, come to the U.S. and ask about the criminal justice field. It's even worse. Technical Drafting? That should be a shoe-in for a job right? NO. Not in the U'S. anyway. There are A LOT of fields with the same or similar issues to what CG has right now. Education has become so (generally) easy to get that it's no longer a promise of employment. People need to look at things in a realistic manner and make mature, educated decisions on what they do with their lives.

I've told my kids, the only college educations that seem to really have a significant ROI are medical, business management, marketing or law. Everything else seems to have a much smaller rate of return for the investment and likely debt.


I'd agree with everything there but marketing. Even that field is having issues. I know a marketing manager who works for a major world wide clothing brand and makes less than 30000 a year. That's someone with a 4 year degree, 10 years of experience and who is at management/art direction level.
 
Old 02 February 2013   #22
Lets make it real simple;

where ever it asks for a credit-card number - it's a scam.
 
Old 02 February 2013   #23
It's silly to go to a brick and mortar school to study anything other than hard science, especially art .
 
Old 02 February 2013   #24
Well MICA in Baltimore has a good traditional Art school program.
The MIT Media Lab and Carnegie Mellon University university are fantastic places to learn new media.

I am convinced that brick and mortal schools do have their place.

What I think is that is a a glut of junky programs that have dilluted the waters.


Becoming organized as a community can help us fight these junky programs.
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Last edited by RobertoOrtiz : 02 February 2013 at 05:46 PM.
 
Old 02 February 2013   #25
It's silly to go to a brick and mortar school to study anything other than hard science, especially art .


Have to respectfully disagree there. While you may not need a degree to get a lot of artistic or "creative" jobs, going to a school where you can get proper "in-class/in-person" critiques from fellow students and from skilled instructors can be invaluable. Networking is also an excellent reason to consider schooling for an art career. Not saying it's for everyone, and you certainly need to evaluate each school carefully, but it's definitely NOT silly or a waste if handled correctly.
 
Old 02 February 2013   #26
The fact that this thread even exists is evidence to the contrary.
 
Old 02 February 2013   #27
There are Art Schools out there that should be held accountable, indeed. Anyone who thinks otherwise needs to open there eyes some more. This, however is a much more complex and larger issue and is not just about the Schools. One can look at the Federal level and the Banks. Why is the price of School so high, why the inflation, why do these Loans have to be subsidized in the first place.

School would be very affordable is all this was turned around, you make Art Schools work harder to compete against one another treating Education like a Free Market, quality control goes up. Students are better educated and without easy loans and snaky business tactics, those who are truly passionate and want to learn make it through, the Market becomes less saturated. The Schools, not all but many figured that they are getting all of this money from the Banks by the Government and use it to grow there Ad Campaigns, there Tactics to lore young folks in. I almost fell for this until i knew what was going on behind the scene and why this bubble is going to pop, like all bubbles made. There is a part where the individual has to play for certain, smart choices.

However, the young are impressionable and with all of the promises, colorful advertising and luring that many of these Schools are so good at, many fall under the trap and are thousands of dollars in dept having to work a very long time to pay it all off and this is a reality that does not have to exist. We need to Free Market solution and not this form of Government solutions which anyone with some knowledge knows where this is going, both current and near future.

There are other alternatives but it is not easy to avoid these traps, you have to find to right path and be under the right circumstances in order to do it. Even Community College prices are creeping up so a good education is a real challenge. Some just choose to learn at home as the best and most affordable means. It depends and circumstances always very from person to person. The only way these junky programs can go away is by taking Government out of the equation. That is where the whole mess of Education started. Blaming the students is only a small part of the equation. Some students are at fault but the blame can easily go to many of these sources i had been making mention of. Education is not what it should be.
 
Old 02 February 2013   #28
Originally Posted by Crotalis: going to a school where you can get proper "in-class/in-person" critiques from fellow students and from skilled instructors can be invaluable.


+1

Originally Posted by Leigh: You can't start holding schools accountable - it's up to individual people to make informed decisions about their education for themselves.


Of course final responsibility rests on the individual, but let's shift gears for a moment.

As taxpayers, should we continue to subsidize schools that have a likely low rate of return for the economy? Let's look at it in that way, shall we?
 
Old 02 February 2013   #29
Things that are good for the economy generally don't need to be subsidized.
 
Old 02 February 2013   #30
Originally Posted by Ephisus: Things that are good for the economy generally don't need to be subsidized.


My my, how simplistic... and TOTALLY false. I mean, I could pull out my list but for starters, look at your computer right in front of you, look at the fact that you can read this message right now, yeah that's right, the internet, federal government (and to a different extend UK government) investment over multiple decades created the foundations of the internet before the private sector found ways to monetize it. Amazon didn't invent packet switching.

Edit: One more fun example: Ever used a Blinn Shader? Guess who Jim Blinn was paid by to develop the original Blinn Shader, NASA.

In fact, private, public, any form of investment is a kind of subsidy because it's all about diverting money into something that isn't economically positive... YET. (And that includes students who need help from the government in order to become better self-actualized and more economically positive.)

So, for the sake of discussion, can we just take "remove all government subsidies of higher education" off the table please?

Last edited by badsearcher : 02 February 2013 at 06:32 PM.
 
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