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Old 02-07-2013, 01:48 AM   #31
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I think what needs to happen is a massive restructure of how films are made and financed this won't happen quickly but i think it's the only way forward.

Lets face some facts that it's far easier today to make movie then it has ever been super cheap digital camera's, cheap and very capable software/hardware and the internet has made sourcing talent and sharing information extremely easy..

So perhaps what some studio's need to look to do is develop their own IP! Look at what some of these movie's are grossing look at the amount of work the vfx shops contribute to the success but the returns they receive are pathetic..

If we look at the games industry currently it kinda went through the same ordeal and lots of fee for service style companies went under just like what is happening with vfx shops today.. But on the bright side now you have lots of companies developing their own titles sure they may not be a massive but they own them and grow them and receive all revenue which can be astronomical in some cases..

Given how easy it is to distribute content and collect revenue for it i really feel some of these shops should dip their toes in the water and start to develop some of their own content so they can develop independent revenue streams.
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Old 02-07-2013, 02:43 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabab
I

So perhaps what some studio's need to look to do is develop their own IP! Look at what some of these movie's are grossing look at the amount of work the vfx shops contribute to the success but the returns they receive are pathetic..
Given how easy it is to distribute content and collect revenue for it i really feel some of these shops should dip their toes in the water and start to develop some of their own content so they can develop independent revenue streams.


This has already been tried and quite frankly none of the VFX vendors have had major success so far.

b
 
Old 02-07-2013, 02:49 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr Bob
This has already been tried and quite frankly none of the VFX vendors have had major success so far.

b

Why? It's working very well in the game space but perhaps because in the gaming world there are much better distribution channels (steam) or monetization models (f2p, dlc, subscription, etc..) ????
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Old 02-07-2013, 03:17 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabab
Given how easy it is to distribute content and collect revenue for it i really feel some of these shops should dip their toes in the water and start to develop some of their own content so they can develop independent revenue streams.


How is it "easy" to distribute content? Merely posting it online is not "distribution." Earning money from views is even harder. True, it's never been cheaper or easier (equipment-wise) to make a movie, but the studios and theater owners still have an iron grip on the more profitable distribution schemes.
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Old 02-07-2013, 03:52 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Artbot
How is it "easy" to distribute content? Merely posting it online is not "distribution." Earning money from views is even harder. True, it's never been cheaper or easier (equipment-wise) to make a movie, but the studios and theater owners still have an iron grip on the more profitable distribution schemes.

Never in history has it been easier to create a video and make money from it hundreds of thousands of people do it today...

Sure they are not making money at the scale the big studio's are but it's income.. I'm not saying some studio is going to make the next Avenger's and purely sell it online and make $700 million.. But surely there is some room for smaller projects that can be self sustaining and grow over time to become a serious franchises / IP..

Many of the most popular video games today started as a small mod that grew over time into something massive...
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Old 02-07-2013, 04:10 AM   #36
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It's not quite THAT easy for a full feature yet.
Look at Kevin Smith and Red State. If -HE- has to jump through so many hoops on fire to get anything out of what's one of his freshest and best movies, then it means it's simply not that easy to go for alternative distribution profitably.

I agree there will be a time, but it's not that time yet for what you're suggesting.

Anybody who's been around large studios could, if not for NDAs, tell you a few stories about the struggles of getting one's own production up, even with pockets much deeper than Joe Average, the know how and infrastructure, the will do it, and ambitions in terms of pure budget that are a fraction of a major feature, yet it rarely happens, and when it does two thirds of the times it downright sinks the studio or near does.

SST for Tippett, Desperaux for Framestore, Red State for Smith, and so on. The number of examples that can't be talked about, you probably have no idea, but I can promise you they are many
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Old 02-07-2013, 04:31 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr Bob
This has already been tried and quite frankly none of the VFX vendors have had major success so far.

b


Rango is a qualified success for Industrial Light and Magic.
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Old 02-07-2013, 04:41 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThE_JacO
It's not quite THAT easy for a full feature yet.
Look at Kevin Smith and Red State. If -HE- has to jump through so many hoops on fire to get anything out of what's one of his freshest and best movies, then it means it's simply not that easy to go for alternative distribution profitably.

I agree there will be a time, but it's not that time yet for what you're suggesting.

I don't think it's there for full feature either but it has to start somewhere and what better time then now ...

It really doesn't have to be about feature film yet small episodic series that can be produced cheaply enough that they don't have to make huge $$ to cover salaries... Would be a great start.. At the end of the day any activity that can create jobs for artists and start to ween the industry away from this business model is a good step for everyone..

Then say in 10-20 years when you have a bunch of studio's which own their own IP don't have to be slaves to this under bidding process can offer attractive salaries to employee's etc it will then start to shift some power back to the content producers...
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Last edited by Kabab : 02-07-2013 at 05:07 AM.
 
Old 02-07-2013, 04:47 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CGIPadawan
Rango is a qualified success for Industrial Light and Magic.

Except ILM was fee for servicing it, not producing it as their own, and surely not distributing it. It was produced by Nickelodeon, Blind Wink (Verbinski's own company) and coproduced by Graham King.
The same goes for Despicable Me, Happy Feet, and basically any successful CG movie that didn't come from Pixar, or DW to a lesser extent, and done by a studio still in business and not struggling.

@Kabab, fair enough, but we were talking about RnH, and the staff at RnH is there to work on a certain kind of project. That's where I say we're not there yet.

I know if here at AL I was routinely asked to hop on low budget episodical YouTube ad monetised productions for the company to pull in measly liquidity, my employment here probably wouldn't last very long, because I signed up and remain around because of entirely different interests and team dynamics than that would create.

Some of us choose this career to work on a specific type of jobs that do require substantial budgets to be interesting. You don't keep RnH the company it is and retain its staff and knowledge through the kind of projects possible now through those channels, not for long.
Know what I mean?
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Old 02-07-2013, 05:13 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThE_JacO
Except ILM was fee for servicing it, not producing it as their own, and surely not distributing it. It was produced by Nickelodeon, Blind Wink (Verbinski's own company) and coproduced by Graham King.
The same goes for Despicable Me, Happy Feet, and basically any successful CG movie that didn't come from Pixar, or DW to a lesser extent, and done by a studio still in business and not struggling.

@Kabab, fair enough, but we were talking about RnH, and the staff at RnH is there to work on a certain kind of project. That's where I say we're not there yet.

I know if here at AL I was routinely asked to hop on low budget episodical YouTube ad monetised productions for the company to pull in measly liquidity, my employment here probably wouldn't last very long, because I signed up and remain around because of entirely different interests and team dynamics than that would create.

Some of us choose this career to work on a specific type of jobs that do require substantial budgets to be interesting. You don't keep RnH the company it is and retain its staff and knowledge through the kind of projects possible now through those channels, not for long.
Know what I mean?


I get it. It's like if you're Blackwater USA you won't be doing Security Guard gigs for malls or boutique stores even if you know it's easy sure measly money, cause you're setup for a different kind of action.

Didn't know that about Rango. Always thought it was Gore Verbinski going "direct to source". But even if that isn't true.. Why hasn't it happened before?

You can go direct to source. Right? Or is there some kind of non-compete thing between VFX houses and studios?
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Old 02-07-2013, 05:27 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CGIPadawan
I get it. It's like if you're Blackwater USA you won't be doing Security Guard gigs for malls or boutique stores even if you know it's easy sure measly money, cause you're setup for a different kind of action.

It's not even about the money (measly I meant as a source for the company, I work for a salary), I've foregone opportunities for more money in the past to instead do something I enjoyed, or live somewhere I preferred.
It's not even about some sense of elitism or snobbery, I actually have great respect for those who can pull off entire lengths of a pipe on their own without losing focus or motivation.

Very simply, many of us actually ENJOY a certain degree of specialisation within a project, and choose to have variety across projects (some even prefer high specialisation and sticking to it all the way through long spans of their career).
I like large, narrowly focused teams to work in and technologies and creatures with enough prominence to be assured I will have time to work on polish as well as broad strokes.

It very simply is what I like, and many others do too. It's hard to find that kind of challenge outside of a show big enough to afford hero creature work for dozens of shots, and it's hard to find such a show outside the mid to high budget.

Quote:
Didn't know that about Rango. Always thought it was Gore Verbinski going "direct to source". But even if that isn't true.. Why hasn't it happened before?

What hasn't? Verbinski producing an animated feature? It takes time to clear everything and make sure you have the financial backing to make things happen, and marketing and distribution joined are hefty costs when you already have the infrastructure and network to do so on many movies, it'd be impossible to shoulder it without it.

Studios have staff and agreements in place with many other companies and parts of the process, that's why it's hard to do without them, even if you have money and know-how to produce. And then of course, you want to be on the good side of such places unless you're small time and rebel and have little to lose, or you have a ridiculous pull. Remember even Tom Cruise wasn't above studio powers and got shouldered out, and Cruise is much bigger than just his star power actor credit.

Quote:
You can go direct to source. Right? Or is there some kind of non-compete thing between VFX houses and studios?

Sure you can, but again, the money for the barebone production is actually a small fraction of the cost and politics of the entire movie.
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Old 02-07-2013, 09:02 AM   #42
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NO MORE WHINING!


What should we cg artists do to make these directors or anyone in the high level, know the cg process?


Or is this a dog eat dog world, where if it's not affecting them (the higher guys), they won't care.

Either way were all f'd up.
 
Old 02-07-2013, 01:03 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goodshoes
Or is this a dog eat dog world, where if it's not affecting them (the higher guys), they won't care.

Why should they care about something if it doesn't affect them? And more importantly, what happens with the vacuum created by these studios when they go belly up? I really don't think Hollywood wants to make less FX heavy movies. Outsourcing might be an option, but it doesn't really give producers and directors the control they want when they are creating a film.
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Old 02-07-2013, 04:08 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goodshoes
NO MORE WHINING!

What should we cg artists do to make these directors or anyone in the high level, know the cg process?

Or is this a dog eat dog world, where if it's not affecting them (the higher guys), they won't care.
Either way were all f'd up.

Guys sorry the coming rantÖ

Right now in our industry we have this INSANE DOG EAT DOG mentality.
Like Gollum going after the ring, we have lost sight of everything else that should be important in life. The STUDIOS know about this, the sleaze ball clients know about this, and that is why frankly we get no respect at all.

Hell that is why when you see the movie credits we are listed AFTER THE CATERERS.

This stupid SELFISHNESS we share, this lack of a sence of community, is killing ALL OF US while the wrong people enrich themselves. I know so many artists in their 40's that are frankly scared beyond belief about their futures. And donít get me started about the older artists from an earlier generation, who I know are in danger of being homeless because of medial issues caused by work.

Something should be done about this, and I feel strongly that the organizations that are supposed to represent CG artists have a moral obligation to try to do something aout this. After all they helped to sell this LIE about the glamour of this industry.

I am not naive, I am not talking about taking the studios one on one. That is , not practical, and I donít see it even happening from this lot.What I am talking is to at least an ACKNOLEDGEMENT for artists groups that there is a HUGE problem in the industry right now.


For example, I LOVE ACM SIGGRAPH, but I have never seen a panel at the national conference about the HORRIBLE JOB CRISIS the industry is facing . (Please do correct me if I am wrong).

That is why I asked before if the organizations that should be representing artists could do something about this.

One example from another career is the American Chemical Society.
I have friends who are chemical scientists and are members of this organization.
They tell me that do events ALL THE TIME, locally and nationally to help their members get jobs, career advancement and training.

http://portal.acs.org/portal/acs/corg/content?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=PP_CAREERS&node_id=87&use_sec=false&sec_url_var=region1&__uuid=672a5718-25b9-4ea2-956c-01475046ca91

Any other ideas?
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Last edited by RobertoOrtiz : 02-07-2013 at 04:13 PM.
 
Old 02-07-2013, 04:30 PM   #45
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This makes me sad. Up until recently I worked at a well respected commercial motion graphics and vfx studio. I had great fun there, great work environment, just awesome all around. I figured I could work there 2-3 years, and then make the jump to feature film VFX. Last year, I had the realization that I didn't want to take that risk. So, I ended up resigning from that studio because I felt I did not want to do VFX as a career anymore, I needed to move onto other things.

I felt I was so close to making the jump to features, but then that dream was gone. Being married I could not take that risk. I could not be away from my wife for such long hours. I could not face the instability of work conditions or having to hop around the world for work.

Now at 29, I'm looking to finish up a degree in graphic design, or maybe teaching. My idealized dream is to still work in VFX, but because of all that has happened, I don't think that dream will ever happen.
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