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Old 02-04-2013, 05:00 PM   #46
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The people that state 'just dont buy' really seem to me to be missing the plot.

You see eventually, there will be no choice, not for people to walk away, nor for that matter publishers. (interesting sidebar, how a music company has just rejected google play, saying it does nothing for the artists)

And in some ways that will be true for all artists, not just music, all developers. We're seeing more and more of Apple's walled garden. If your not in your out. And what will independents do when there are only 1 or 2. Suck it up and pay what percentage they demand.

What will you do as the purchaser, suck up any eula, regardless of your countries law.

There are less and less choices, more terms and conditions, in fact so many, and so lengthy, I bet hardly anyone reads a eula anymore.

To me there is a solution, buy it requires the companies to be honest, not to charge you full price for a game, but a rental price. And it's been a fair business model for every cd/dvd thats ever been rented. But at this point, if i were a company, i would not do it, why when i can charge full price, that is unless legislation forces me to.

Either you're selling it, and i have the right to resell it, or you charge me a rental fee. Not a $4000, and subs, no, just a fair rental based on the yearly subs. ie $1000 split over 12 months.
 
Old 02-04-2013, 05:02 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrainFreeze
If you are truly that passionate about your rights then why do you give them away? Don't buy stuff from Valve.


It doesn't matter AT ALL that you don't buy from Valve directly.

I bought Skyrim, Borderlands 2 and Protoype 2 from a physical store.

All 3 insisted on Steam DRM & activation.

I bought Far Cry 3 from a store. It insisted on UPlay DRM & activation.

Yesterday I bought Serious Sam 2 and Jet Set Radio from Playstore.com.

Guess what? Both insisted on Steam DRM/Activation.

With every day that passes, it becomes harder and harder to avoid Steam, because so many games you buy insist on you having a Steam account and use Steam as a convenient DRM system that ties your hands behind your back.


So there is only one viable option left - to hope that the German court in question flattens, flattens, flattens Valve!

I'm sorry but that's just the way it is.

I have over 20 old games on Steam that I don't play anymore, and would sell 2nd hand to any buyer in an instant.

I paid a lot of money for those 20 games. It would be nice if I could get some of that money back.

If the German court in question rules against Valve/Steam, the lawsuits may spread to other EU countries.

And if those courts rule that Steam needs to let you sell your old games 2nd hand, then it is only a matter of time before a similar ruling can be expected in the U.S., and maybe here in Turkey, too.

My 2 Cents...
 
Old 02-04-2013, 06:20 PM   #48
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If I download something illegally it is called stealing. PLain and simple. You take something that is not yours.

It holds up in court that if I download a product illegally it is stealing.

But in the same vein, if I pay for something it is MINE. Period. At that point I can do whatever I want with it include sell it.

If the rules of stealing apply so do the rules of ownership. I put down 10-3,000 dollars on something it is mine. Period.

I do what I want with it and if I want to sell it I should be able to.
Just like the companies have rights if someone takes their stuff. I hold similiar rights that apply to products.
 
Old 02-04-2013, 06:41 PM   #49
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Well said, Aang!

You said exactly what I was thinking in much fewer words.

We who pay for content should have our basic rights restored.

Big companies should not be allowed to take away those rights.

And if they do, well, we can only hope the courts of law decide in our favor.
 
Old 02-04-2013, 06:58 PM   #50
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In the end, even though this thread is passionate, it will only be a few lawyers who are licensed to practice in said areas that will decide the future of the agreement. A lot of money will likely be spent in defense. They are not just going to roll over because of complaints. People are not going to quit using the service either and put them out of business.

One person in this thread mentioned that litigation is unnatural. However, I would argue that litigation is completely natural and is a complete by-product of creating laws. Especially when laws are complex and require specialized training and licensing just to practice as a professional within those laws.

People have always had litigation, or mitigation or even mediation. Even when it comes to a disagreement about sheep and cattle trading or marrying off a daughter that cannot produce offspring. Where there is a disagreement, they must be those that can sort things out so everyone can remain civilized.
 
Old 02-04-2013, 07:54 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AangtheAvatar
If I download something illegally it is called stealing. PLain and simple. You take something that is not yours.

It holds up in court that if I download a product illegally it is stealing.

But in the same vein, if I pay for something it is MINE. Period. At that point I can do whatever I want with it include sell it.

If the rules of stealing apply so do the rules of ownership. I put down 10-3,000 dollars on something it is mine. Period.

I do what I want with it and if I want to sell it I should be able to.
Just like the companies have rights if someone takes their stuff. I hold similiar rights that apply to products.


The thing is though you can't actually do whatever you want with something that you own, like for instance there's laws against reverse engineering a product, so you wouldn't be able to take a game you bought and then take apart the files, you can't use it in anything, even though all that is possible for you to do there are laws that prevent it.
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Old 02-04-2013, 07:57 PM   #52
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Heck I remember when Steam was new technology the the thread here on its implications. Most were pretty petrified. Some folks have gotten pretty complacent since then.
I put myself in the boat as some others here. Treat folks like they are 'renting' your one-use product and charge accordingly. Probably an unlikely option now...too many people fell for it.

Maybe its a generation thing. Those of us that used to record their own cassettes and sell their own CDs second hand (or whatever) thought the idea of DRM for any digital media was a very rude awakening. And resented it. And hoped there would be a way around it. And I still hope its defeated somehow someday...
 
Old 02-04-2013, 08:31 PM   #53
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I'd argue that the way games are sold at the moment are more akin to leasing or rental. A clear distinction needs to be made. Bit by bit the games I have been buying for full price over the years have essentially turned into games that I am now appear to be renting instead.

This ain't right. How could anyone not notice policy creep here? I like Valve and Steam, I really do. I feel they have truly championed PC gaming and looked out for small developer studios. I have much respect for them.

But basic consumer rights cannot be pushed to one side because it is financially inconvenient for them. I hope Germany sets the precedent here because I am damned sure the UK and USA wouldn't favour Joe public.
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Old 02-04-2013, 08:46 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grrinc
I'd argue that the way games are sold at the moment are more akin to leasing or rental. A clear distinction needs to be made.....


That's a good point. If it was called "games rental" people would accept it for that in the same way as they accept the terms of renting a game from the store. Not calling it "rental" seems to make people naturally assume they own it.
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Old 02-04-2013, 08:59 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AangtheAvatar
But in the same vein, if I pay for something it is MINE. Period. At that point I can do whatever I want with it include sell it.


Except it isn't. And no, you cannot do whatever you want with it - see darthviper107 answer about that.

Software you use in Steam isn't yours. You pay for a service that stores your games in the cloud and allows you to download it as many times as you want and play it. You don't like it, i don't like it, but that's the reality. I find the spirit of "i don't agree, change yourself for my whims" an example fit for that thread about mediocrity.

I don't give a damn about Valve, but i find ridiculous that people think they actually have the right to dictate how a perfectly legal business that so far hasn't been dishonest or done wrong to their customers has to bend down to their antiquated minds. We all traded our games cartridges or sold our card games to friends when we were young. The world is different, business models changed.

You don't like, don't buy. I also don't agree that on ITunes a song from a good artist has the same 99cent price than a justin biber one. I don't agree that Apple products should cost as much for what they offer, I also don't agree astrologists should be allowed to exist because they rip of people ( i hope no contest on that right? ), that tobacco is bad for your health, mcdonalds is crappy food, but until the day you stop having the freedom to give those money or not, it is all your choice and i don't see the justification in suing them. No-one is to blame but you for joining in. You knew how it worked beforehand.

Lately the videogames industry has become the easy target of cowards that can't handle go after the real issues. But i understand. It's easier to persecute friendly Gabe Newell than go after the gun industry, the corrupt politicians or sleezy bankers. Those can bite back, nerds are softer targets

Hey, i think kickstarter and crowdfunding in general should pay heavy taxes for the amount of cash that is being "donated"/received like the rest of working people have to. I don't agree. I have the right to get equality. If my mooching neighbor not only doesn't work, gets free money from the internet and doesn't even have to pay taxes, it goes against my rights! Right guys?! Lets pick up the righteousness armor and sword of truthiness and see you with the rest of the crusaders at the gate!
 
Old 02-04-2013, 09:04 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grrinc
This ain't right.
But basic consumer rights cannot be pushed to one side because it is financially inconvenient for them.


You are correct sir, it isn't. But the fact remains that they aren't a public entity, they don't have to do anything besides being legal and pay their taxes. Its a free market. Why, in the million of customers Steam has, hasn't there been someone so unsatisfied that they came up with a better system in all these years?
 
Old 02-04-2013, 09:09 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shesul
I don't give a damn about Valve, but i find ridiculous that people think they actually have the right to dictate how a perfectly legal business that so far hasn't been dishonest or done wrong to their customers has to bend down to their antiquated minds.



This legality is being tested. If it contravenes consumer rights laws, then no, it is not, nor never has been, legal. This is why we have courts and procedure to protect out hard earned rights.
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Old 02-04-2013, 09:16 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shesul
You are correct sir, it isn't. But the fact remains that they aren't a public entity, they don't have to do anything besides being legal and pay their taxes. Its a free market. Why, in the million of customers Steam has, hasn't there been someone so unsatisfied that they came up with a better system in all these years?


You do understand that what is happening in Germany isnt an attempt to change the laws? It is an attempt to clarify the existing laws. If the courts rule that Steam have acted illegally, then whether you like it or not, they have acted illegally. This is not about whinging, this is about addressing what looks like a dirty practice. As a paying customer, I'd like to know if the people I have given my money too ( lots ) have treated me with disdain. Wouldn't you?

Obviously, Valve/Steam may be acting lawfully after all. But someone must be doing something wrong for it to get this far. A judge has ruled there is a case to answer too. We shall wait and see.
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Old 02-04-2013, 09:20 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shesul
Except it isn't. And no, you cannot do whatever you want with it - see darthviper107 answer about that.

Software you use in Steam isn't yours. You pay for a service that stores your games in the cloud and allows you to download it as many times as you want and play it. You don't like it, i don't like it, but that's the reality. I find the spirit of "i don't agree, change yourself for my whims" an example fit for that thread about mediocrity.

I don't give a damn about Valve, but i find ridiculous that people think they actually have the right to dictate how a perfectly legal business that so far hasn't been dishonest or done wrong to their customers has to bend down to their antiquated minds. We all traded our games cartridges or sold our card games to friends when we were young. The world is different, business models changed.

You don't like, don't buy. I also don't agree that on ITunes a song from a good artist has the same 99cent price than a justin biber one. I don't agree that Apple products should cost as much for what they offer, I also don't agree astrologists should be allowed to exist because they rip of people ( i hope no contest on that right? ), that tobacco is bad for your health, mcdonalds is crappy food, but until the day you stop having the freedom to give those money or not, it is all your choice and i don't see the justification in suing them. No-one is to blame but you for joining in. You knew how it worked beforehand.

Lately the videogames industry has become the easy target of cowards that can't handle go after the real issues. But i understand. It's easier to persecute friendly Gabe Newell than go after the gun industry, the corrupt politicians or sleezy bankers. Those can bite back, nerds are softer targets

Hey, i think kickstarter and crowdfunding in general should pay heavy taxes for the amount of cash that is being "donated"/received like the rest of working people have to. I don't agree. I have the right to get equality. If my mooching neighbor not only doesn't work, gets free money from the internet and doesn't even have to pay taxes, it goes against my rights! Right guys?! Lets pick up the righteousness armor and sword of truthiness and see you with the rest of the crusaders at the gate!


Anger leads to the Dark Side. Or to a premature stroke. You're raging and starting to go off on a tangent here. Calm down, man...
 
Old 02-04-2013, 09:28 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XLNT-3d
In the end, even though this thread is passionate, it will only be a few lawyers who are licensed to practice in said areas that will decide the future of the agreement. A lot of money will likely be spent in defense. They are not just going to roll over because of complaints. People are not going to quit using the service either and put them out of business.

One person in this thread mentioned that litigation is unnatural. However, I would argue that litigation is completely natural and is a complete by-product of creating laws. Especially when laws are complex and require specialized training and licensing just to practice as a professional within those laws.

People have always had litigation, or mitigation or even mediation. Even when it comes to a disagreement about sheep and cattle trading or marrying off a daughter that cannot produce offspring. Where there is a disagreement, they must be those that can sort things out so everyone can remain civilized.


Well said. Lets wait and see how it goes. Some clarification will be quite useful considering how cloud services seem to be the near future. I can see some similar threads coming when, i.e. Autodesk goes fully cloud.

Last edited by entropymachine : 02-04-2013 at 09:34 PM.
 
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