Valve/Steam sued in Germany over 2nd Hand Game Sales

Become a member of the CGSociety

Connect, Share, and Learn with our Large Growing CG Art Community. It's Free!

THREAD CLOSED
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 02 February 2013   #31
Originally Posted by cojam: Can we please address this once and for all. A EULA is NOT a legally binding document. Not unless the courts say so. (recently oracle lost - users allowed to resell)


Lets assume this is right. In which way does it exempt the client from having made a conscious choice of still paying for the games when they knew that's how it worked? Of course it would be great to have the options people want, but the bottom line is, you only join in if you want.

Last edited by entropymachine : 02 February 2013 at 05:17 PM.
 
Old 02 February 2013   #32
I have no sympathy for software companies or any content creator regarding this issue. The moment a product is considered 'bugged' - or faulty in real terms - then it can go back for full refund as far as I'm concerned. But the software industry seems to think they can ride roughshod over this basic consumer rights tenet. The EULA means jack shizz.

I am of the generation that was ripped off for years with overpriced CD's and films. Thankfully, Tesco's ( of all people ) found a way of undoing the media companies cosy little cartel that kept prices rigged.

I am a big fan of Steam and Valve and all they have done for the PC gaming industry, but enough is enough. Stop ripping off and insulting paying customers.
__________________
Posted by Proxy
 
Old 02 February 2013   #33
This is an example of how judicial systems get clogged with trash instead of dealing faster with issues that matter. Really? You want to trade your steam games but bad valve doesn't let you? Well...tough. Shouldn't have bought them in. Oh but you can trade card games and board games? Well...tough again. I also wanted my car to have a flux capacitor and i'm not suing BM because i feel like it should. Consumer basic rights is something unfortunately exploited by, for example, the idiots who sue McDonals after they get fat. Its the same case here. You bought steam games and you didn't know you couldn't trade them? Maybe you should make informed decisions first, instead of trying to be the smart guy who gets games so cheap they are almost free sometimes but then regrets it or just finishes the games and gets bored and wants to rip the company off by wanting a refund. You do not own your digital assets. You own the right to use them. Welcome to this century. Don't like, don't buy, go outside for a change and enter a store to get the dvds or even mail order them. Are we becoming such a society where consumerism has reached the point where people aren't content enough with being spoofed everything for a quick buck? Some day some genius will think how unfair it is to have to get up his ass to pick up the mail and sue the post office.

And its obvious this obscure entity in Germany is only doing this to appear on the news and by the way the lady talks about board games i would bet she doesn't even know what she's talking about.

Last edited by Shesul : 02 February 2013 at 05:43 PM.
 
Old 02 February 2013   #34
Originally Posted by entropymachine: Lets assume this is right.


There is no assume, it is right.

As for the rest of your comments your totally out of step with everyone else here. Why? Have you forgotten that you, the consumer had a right to make backups? Well that got took away didn't it, because as people have said here, we're automatically treated like thief's. So what responsibility do i have, as you ask, when by default my rights are taken away, and i'm treated like a thief. You tell me. Have you also forgotten or been unfairly duped into believing that just because something is digital, that automatically your consumer rights disappear.

Read DePaint's comment on what Steam / Itunes etc, could do, to give people their rights back - very easily - if they wanted to. The point is they dont, because they want you to not resell, it's about making money - for them, not you, and if you lose a right or two along the way do you think they care? Do you know that in general once a right is lost, it rarely comes back?

So it's not a useless suit, it's as important as working conditions were during the industrial revolution. It's about thinking ahead and seeing whats happening and seeing whats coming.

What really worries me about your comments and apathy over this is that if everyone else follows that mindset, what will happen to us all when the cloud really hits. You can read on this very forum some of the eula rules they are trying to force on unsuspecting people. ie They own the content you produce.

If you not willing to stand up for your consumer rights, or any right for that matter, it will be trampled on. You only need to look around the web and uk/us laws to see that's already happening, and if you dont say anything, when you see something wrong, then remember when the future happens, and it will, if you dont like it, you got no-one else to blame other than the people that just stood by and said nothing.

That is more than likely the very reason it is being contested in Germany. History, and an important lesson learned, in freedoms, rights and responsibilities of "both sides."

So I for one welcome this lawsuit, because it even minimally it creates a dialog on what kind of digital future we want. And thats in everyone's interest.
 
Old 02 February 2013   #35
Valve must have foreseen this train coming at them, as their updated Steam Subscriber Agreement prohibits class-action suits against them:

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...but-is-it-legal
__________________
I like to learn.
 
Old 02 February 2013   #36
Originally Posted by cojam: So it's not a useless suit, it's as important as working conditions were during the industrial revolution. It's about thinking ahead and seeing whats happening and seeing whats coming.

What really worries me about your comments and apathy over this is that if everyone else follows that mindset, what will happen to us all when the cloud really hits. You can read on this very forum some of the eula rules they are trying to force on unsuspecting people. ie They own the content you produce.


Sorry, its not apathy, its seeing a debate that can happen with common sense and reason turning into a political one, which i have no interest in. Again you mentioned absolutely nothing about customer choice and responsibility.

And this is so not comparable to the Industrial Revolution that it's hard to take that quote seriously. You're comparing a turning point in human history to not being able to trade games? "Rights?" It's a choice. Nobody is taking your rights away. You don't like steam/any other similar system, you just don't use it. It's not a monopoly, they did not deceit you in any way, the rules are at the door, you have choice and options, you go there because you want to, you accept their rules. If you don't, you have the option of doing your own "fair" system and letting the customers chose (like you did)

Let's make it even simpler. You pass through a street with lots of shops. One of them doesn't have what you want or you don't like the shop owner. You have two options. You enter and buy or you move along and go to the next one. Or you can always stand in a protest outside the shop calling the owner names and accomplish absolutely nothing.

So yes, i'm standing for my customer rights. Specially the right of not using a service if i don't agree with its rules.

And since i'm not trying to convince or be convinced i'll shut up now

Last edited by entropymachine : 02 February 2013 at 06:37 PM.
 
Old 02 February 2013   #37
Originally Posted by Shesul: You do not own your digital assets. You own the right to use them. Welcome to this century.


You are completely wrong. The minute you put a "buy" or "purchase" button in a digital store, I, as the buyer, assume - and this is perfectly logical - that I am actually "buying" a digital asset... Which in turn means that I "own" the digital asset I have bought, which also means that I can then "resell" or "give" that digital asset to whoever I choose to.

Your "you don't own the digital asset, you only get a right to use it within contractually defined limits" argument is complete and utter garbage.

It is an illogical concept that a couple of 1,500,000 Dollar-a-year-MBAs dressed in 5,000 Dollar Hugo Boss suits invented a couple of years ago, probably to see if they can get away with such highway-robbery in the first place, and now the whole world - 7 Billion living human beings - is stuck with this CRUEL, PITILESS, SENSELESS, ASS-BACKWARDS business model.

This is something that needs to be defeated. The place to wage war on these thieving CORPORATE ASSHATS is - where else - in the courts.

Quote: Don't like, don't buy, go outside for a change and enter a store to get the dvds or even mail order them.


That makes no difference whatsoever! Almost every game I buy in a physical packaging these days FORCES me to perform some kind of online-activation - using Steam, Origin, UPLay, Games For Windows or similar HARD-DRM shit.

Once the game is tied to these ONE-USER-ONLY online accounts there is no way to reverse the process. No way to sell them 2nd hand, or swap some games with friends, or do anything else with them.

The physical medium I bought from the store becomes a paperweight - nobody I give the game to can activate it and use it again.

Quote: Some day some genius will think how unfair it is to have to get up his ass to pick up the mail and sue the post office.


What does this ridiculous example you've pulled out of your hat have to do with 60 Dollar games being one-use-only?

Should consumers be punished because they bought something online instead of at a store?

You seem to think so. Which is pretty illogical...

Quote: And its obvious this obscure entity in Germany is only doing this to appear on the news


Wrong again. Germans have a long tradition of upholding consumer rights better than most developed Western Countries do.

The entity currently suing Valve is one of the mechanisms in place in Germany to fight Corporate Asshats that are trying to cheat, deceive and ultimately fuck-over paying customers.

I am glad such entities and mechanisms exist. I wished that my country had stronger consumer rights protections, too.

My 2 Cents...
 
Old 02 February 2013   #38
Originally Posted by Dillster: Valve must have foreseen this train coming at them, as their updated Steam Subscriber Agreement prohibits class-action suits against them:

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...but-is-it-legal


Valve, nor any other corporate entity, can prohibit class-action lawsuits with a few pages of EULA babble. That stuff is worthless in a court of law.

A class-action lawsuit - or equivalent in whatever each country calls it - can always be brought
against a company that lies, cheats, deceives or steals from the consumer. (Trying to take away basic buyer or consumer rights is precisely that - lying, cheating, deceiving and stealing from the paying buyer).

Valve probably saw the writing on the wall, and thought they could buy some time with this.

Maybe they thought "If we can make 90% of buyer believe that the can't sue us, then we win!".

Well, they thought wrong.

It doesn't matter what Valve puts in its EULAs, or Terms Of Service, or whatever they happen to call it.

A court of law has, by nature, the jurisdiction to flatten Valve's EULA or TOS.

I personally believe that that is going to happen in this German case.

They court will hear arguments from both sides, and probably choose to rule in favor of the individual consumer.

At that point it is over for Valve's silly "you cannot sell your games" policy. They will be forced to allow 2nd hand sales in Germany.

And once this starts in Germany, more lawsuits will be brought against Valve in other countries. Because there are millions of consumers everywhere who WANT THEIR BASIC BUYER RIGHTS RESTORED.

If the German court rules against Valve, this is the beginning of the end for their crappy business model.

I have over 20 Steam games that I don't want to play anymore. I would like to sell them to other players who may want to play older games.

So I hope the German court does the right thing, and gets the ball rolling against Valve in other countries, too!
 
Old 02 February 2013   #39
Originally Posted by DePaint: You are completely wrong. The minute you put a "buy" or "purchase" button in a digital store, I, as the buyer, assume - and this is perfectly logical - that I am actually "buying" a digital asset... Which in turn means that I "own" the digital asset I have bought, which also means that I can then "resell" or "give" that digital asset to whoever I choose to.

This is something that needs to be defeated. The place to wage war on these thieving CORPORATE ASSHATS is - where else - in the courts.


Guess again and read the EULA. You are buying the right to use the software, but the ownership of the digital information is still from the cloud owner. So if one day Steam goes down, say bye bye to your games and you can't complain, because you agreed to it. And i agree of course its BS and a downside of these systems, but it is what it is.

Originally Posted by DePaint: That makes no difference whatsoever! Almost every game I buy in a physical packaging these days FORCES me to perform some kind of online-activation - using Steam, Origin, UPLay, Games For Windows or similar HARD-DRM shit.

Once the game is tied to these ONE-USER-ONLY online accounts there is no way to reverse the process. No way to sell them 2nd hand, or swap some games with friends, or do anything else with them.


Are we 12 year olds trying to make money reselling games to buy new ones or something? If you're an adult invest money knowing what you are getting into how can you complain after? Isn't the concept of investing in virtual assets risky enough for you to be careful before? As i said, if one day Steam disappears, millions in games go down the drain. I imagine the outcries that will come on that day...if only you knew beforehand right?

Originally Posted by DePaint: Should consumers be punished because they bought something online instead of at a store?
You seem to think so. Which is pretty illogical...


Not punished, but a bit of Darwinism is great sometimes. Some of those consumers rush at a cheap offer, "shut up and take my money" when something shinny appears without thinking, or bothering to read the warnings before. And when they realize what they've done, then the blame game starts. Its everybody's fault but mine, poor me, i'm a customer and i deserve protection. Yes you do, from lead painted toys, ruined food, dirty water and air, crime, insecurity.

There are dopes everywhere, and the digital games market is no exception. The difference is that in there there is an EULA to read. I don't give a flying monkey if its legally binding or what not. You accepted it gladly when it was convenient for you. In my opinion, you dont deserve jackshit if you were dumb enough to not read between the lines and rushed to get the latest steam promotion at super low prices.

Human stupidity is the greatest marketing ally. And i'm sorry this talk is turning into a digital version of the occupy movements rethoric. Let me go grab my drum against evil Valve and we can take an iphone picture to post on facebook of how cool i am!


PS - I think the hypocrisy reaches its maximum level when you use the "courts wisdom" to justify your way of thinking. Courts also say software "sharing" is punishable by prison, that ISP's should reveal their customers info etc. And i would bet that in those cases you don't think the courts are so wise, do you?

Last edited by Shesul : 02 February 2013 at 07:28 PM.
 
Old 02 February 2013   #40
Originally Posted by fuss: These days (maybe with the exception of online games like MMOs and other services that rely on a constant internet connection to stream the actual content from the original company's servers) it's actually WAY easier and hassle-free to download and install a game illegally than to go through all the hoops associated with legal digital purchases. People don't pay for digital goods because they are too stupid to figure out how to download a file from Rapidshare. They make a deliberate decision to give you their money, the company that rewards them by treating them as potential criminals.



No it isn't, it's actually way easier these days just to buy a game on Steam than it is to pirate it.
__________________
The Z-Axis
 
Old 02 February 2013   #41
Originally Posted by Shesul: PS - I think the hypocrisy reaches its maximum level when you use the "courts wisdom" to justify your way of thinking. Courts also say software "sharing" is punishable by prison, that ISP's should reveal their customers info etc. And i would bet that in those cases you don't think the courts are so wise, do you?


You seem to miss the politics behind all this, my friend...

Consumer rights were largely intact worldwide before the GW Bush administration took over the reigns of power in the U.S.

A lot of retailers ran on a "Customer is King" policy, and things like "30-day no questions money-back guarantee" on products were pretty common. Especially in the U.S. and EU.

The Bush people, in the 8 years they were in power - 2000 to 2008 - gave both large corporations and all sorts of anti-consumer laws and lobbyists a "free pass" to do whatever they want.

All sorts of s++t that protected the consumer in the 1980s and 1990s got BROKEN & REPEALED because the Bush folks LOVE the corporations, and HATE the small consumer.

The big Corporations - now in complete control of the U.S. government and market thanks to the Bush people's fucked up, assbackwards ideological way of thinking - started implementing all sorts of ANTI-CONSUMER rules and regulations.

During the Clinton Administration, in the 1990s, did corporations dare to force things like MANDATORY DRM and MANDATORY ONLINE ACTIVATION on people?

No they didn't. The technology was there. But they didn't use it.

None of the old games and software I have from the 1980s & 1990s requires any sort of DRM or Online Activation.

Just about the worst you got back then was some 3D softwares requiring hardware dongles and such. (But still - you could sell the software + dongle to someone else, so no problems there....)

With the Bush Administration in power this 21st CENTURY WAR ON CONSUMER RIGHTS started.

DRM appeared. Online activations appeared. Software makers started arguing that you "cannot buy their software, but merely purchase a limited license to use it".

The plan to move everything to "the Cloud" was hatched during the Bush years (it was implemented after Bush because industry had to wait for Internet speeds to increase to a certain level before Cloud Computing became feasible).

Almost all of this 21st Century shit that we now suffer under worldwide happened with the Bush folks in charge.

As for Obama? He is a letdown, sadly. He promised to make the world a better place, before he got elected. Then, once elected, he did virtually nothing to change the core Bush Doctrine policies.


The only thing that can RESTORE CONSUMER RIGHTS now is for courts in countries where consumer rights still exist - like Germany - to take on the big corporations.

If Steam falls on its face in this legal battle, then so will other draconian DRM/Cloud Services.


It is thus imperative - if we want a digital realm where consumer rights are restored - for big cloud services like Steam to be kicked squarely in the proverbial nuts by courts around the world.


I'm sorry if you don't agree with this, but this a war, of sorts, to get basic consumer/buyer rights re-instated.

You are free to chose the side you are most comfortable with - that of the corporations, or that of the consumers.

As a consumer who is very, very unhappy with having his digital ownership rights violated at every turn, I hope that a thousand similar court cases are brought against the corporations.

My 2 Cents...
 
Old 02 February 2013   #42
Originally Posted by DePaint: If the German court rules against Valve, this is the beginning of the end for their crappy business model....


Probably true in the EU. Big cases like this taken in Germany often end up as EU legislation eventually, assuming of course that VZVB wins. Someone mentioned in a previous post that VZVB is an obscure group. That isn't true, they pack a good punch in consumer affairs and are not afraid to take on the heavyweights and fight.
__________________
I like to learn.
 
Old 02 February 2013   #43
Originally Posted by darthviper107: No it isn't, it's actually way easier these days just to buy a game on Steam than it is to pirate it.


If the game has no DRM and you always save your login, billing and address information so you don't have to retype it each time you buy something (which you shouldn't do, for security reasons) then maybe it's a draw. Otherwise, I'm convinced the pirates have it easier.

But that's not the point I'm trying to make. I don't mind the slightly longer or more complicated process, I just don't want to be treated like a crook and robbed of my consumer rights for doing the right thing!

And it's not just about Steam and computer games (and I actually like Steam a lot, apart from the aforementioned issues). Right now, if you don't like their EULA, you can go and get the same game in a real store and then do with it whatever you want. But things are moving very fast in the direction of digital downloads and cloud storage across the board. I can imagine, in several years the only way to purchase certain things - like software, games, music, movies, maybe even books - will be through digital channels. We need a precedence case, to set the ground rules for all future digital retailers and we need to do it now while we still have the chance. Because as cojam said - once a right is lost, it rarely comes back. And the fact is, we are being robbed of our rights, whether you want to admit it or not.
 
Old 02 February 2013   #44
Originally Posted by DePaint: You seem to miss the politics behind all this, my friend...

Consumer rights were largely intact worldwide before the GW Bush administration took over the reigns of power in the U.S.

A lot of retailers ran on a "Customer is King" policy, and things like "30-day no questions money-back guarantee" on products were pretty common. Especially in the U.S. and EU.

The Bush people, in the 8 years they were in power - 2000 to 2008 - gave both large corporations and all sorts of anti-consumer laws and lobbyists a "free pass" to do whatever they want.

All sorts of s++t that protected the consumer in the 1980s and 1990s got BROKEN & REPEALED because the Bush folks LOVE the corporations, and HATE the small consumer.

The big Corporations - now in complete control of the U.S. government and market thanks to the Bush people's fucked up, assbackwards ideological way of thinking - started implementing all sorts of ANTI-CONSUMER rules and regulations.

During the Clinton Administration, in the 1990s, did corporations dare to force things like MANDATORY DRM and MANDATORY ONLINE ACTIVATION on people?

No they didn't. The technology was there. But they didn't use it.

None of the old games and software I have from the 1980s & 1990s requires any sort of DRM or Online Activation.

Just about the worst you got back then was some 3D softwares requiring hardware dongles and such. (But still - you could sell the software + dongle to someone else, so no problems there....)

With the Bush Administration in power this 21st CENTURY WAR ON CONSUMER RIGHTS started.

DRM appeared. Online activations appeared. Software makers started arguing that you "cannot buy their software, but merely purchase a limited license to use it".

The plan to move everything to "the Cloud" was hatched during the Bush years (it was implemented after Bush because industry had to wait for Internet speeds to increase to a certain level before Cloud Computing became feasible).

Almost all of this 21st Century shit that we now suffer under worldwide happened with the Bush folks in charge.

As for Obama? He is a letdown, sadly. He promised to make the world a better place, before he got elected. Then, once elected, he did virtually nothing to change the core Bush Doctrine policies.


The only thing that can RESTORE CONSUMER RIGHTS now is for courts in countries where consumer rights still exist - like Germany - to take on the big corporations.

If Steam falls on its face in this legal battle, then so will other draconian DRM/Cloud Services.


It is thus imperative - if we want a digital realm where consumer rights are restored - for big cloud services like Steam to be kicked squarely in the proverbial nuts by courts around the world.


I'm sorry if you don't agree with this, but this a war, of sorts, to get basic consumer/buyer rights re-instated.

You are free to chose the side you are most comfortable with - that of the corporations, or that of the consumers.

As a consumer who is very, very unhappy with having his digital ownership rights violated at every turn, I hope that a thousand similar court cases are brought against the corporations.

My 2 Cents...

Citation needed for most of that post, but I'll bite anyways. Those suits driving luxury cars and wearing expensive suits you mentioned a few posts back are.... drumroll.... Lawyers
Corporations might have powerful lobbying positions but their income still comes from one place- the puny consumer. At the end of the day litigation is only but a weak and temporary way to solve the problem because Valve or whoever else still has more money and determination than you or anyone else to come back and sneak legislation in place.

If you are truly that passionate about your rights then why do you give them away? Don't buy stuff from Valve. Stick with something like the Humble Bundle or indie games. Support players that play by the rules you like. Educate other people to do the same. What is the problem? Your whole argument of "I want it but I cannot have it" does sound somewhat childish. The rest are conspiracy theories and hate speech about the Bush administration (sure, that is exactly what happened).
 
Old 02 February 2013   #45
It'll just get more confusing in the future once games are a streaming service, then you won't even have the game on your computer it'll just be streamed to you.
__________________
The Z-Axis
 
Thread Closed share thread



Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
CGSociety
Society of Digital Artists
www.cgsociety.org

Powered by vBulletin
Copyright 2000 - 2006,
Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Minimize Ads
Forum Jump
Miscellaneous

All times are GMT. The time now is 12:48 AM.


Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.