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Old 01 January 2013   #31
Originally Posted by JeroenDStout: I actually find the idea of a 'simple gratification for its male audience' part of the problem; why is this animation aimed at men, directly? Not men like me, clearly. There is no reason to assume a male audience at any rate.


Not men like me either I guess. It gave me a bad first impression right from the opening which probable skewed my opinion against it.

It's perfectly possible to make a short film with an interesting story without themes like this one. Here's an example that I really enjoyed. A little dark but also quite funny too. https://vimeo.com/52068093

Cheers,
Brian
 
Old 01 January 2013   #32
Originally Posted by JeroenDStout: I do of course recognize the shortcuts. But the shortcuts do demand of an audience they can recognize and enjoy the simplification. I actually find the idea of a 'simple gratification for its male audience' part of the problem; why is this animation aimed at men, directly? Not men like me, clearly. There is no reason to assume a male audience at any rate.

In hindsight they 'outgrow' their petty initial ideas - so why not leave the women off the horses at the end, is my line of thought. Currently it quips "achieved: women", rather than following the (up to that point) excellent growth. I can see it is a shortcut some men may identify with but I find it too much in line with male/female-stereotypes that I do not like. This is not a wordly view of women or attraction; whereas the rest of the animation shows more knowledge of the medium, styles, storytelling...

I think all the other shortcuts you mention are excellent. I do not object against all shortcuts (storytelling itself would be impossible), just ones that are based on heavy gender stereotyping.


That is an astute observation. If they wanted to be more precise, they probably should have just had the heroes riding into the sunset after leaving the map for the kids.

But the "pick-up women" coming after the "Epic Painting Pose of Awesome" is dictated by their chosen cinematic cycle (because that's what the he-man character scene is like at the start). This is them giving in to making it symmetric.

So again, knowledge of the medium, but perhaps they were too fixated with style at that point.

It definitely should have probably ended with the heroes not reverting to picking-up women after realizing that wasn't the "real reward".

The gender stereo-typing... I agree.. it's low-ball. But even if you don't like it. You understand it as a premise... and can't argue with the logic of the film's in-world events resulting from it. So it "works" - even if you didn't like it.

So... again.. Skill points to them because it allows them to tell the story.
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Last edited by CGIPadawan : 01 January 2013 at 12:42 AM.
 
Old 01 January 2013   #33
According to the page, nearly half the people that created and worked on this were women. SciFi and Fantasy has a ton of scantily clad damsels throughout it's timeline so it seems a bit late to want to change that entire framework, unless we go back and clothe Conan's and Bond's girls. Maybe they shouldn't have gotten the girls at the end, but that wouldn't have completed the arc in my opinion. Getting a bit PC with our storytelling paradigm aren't we? Should all women be portrayed as intellectual archetypes? To me that would become boring and nothing like reality. Don't get me wrong, one of my favorite female roles is Eva Green/Vesper Lynn in Casino Royale mainly because of her sheer intelligence over Bond (my favorite type of girl has ALWAYS been highly educated personally). It makes that movie even more than Daniel Craig's performance. But in no way would I ever want all female characters to be portrayed in that fashion, or to tell others they should conform to some standard with their storytelling (especially fantasy like this). By the way, one of the kids that get the map at the end is a girl as well right?
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Last edited by MrPositive : 01 January 2013 at 07:37 AM.
 
Old 01 January 2013   #34
My question is how come something like R' ha gets more attention in general to a 2d animation like this?


Sorry, I loved R' ha too. I give it high accolades. I was just wondering why 3d seems to most audiences today to get all the attention and something of higher or equal quality but in 2d seems to get less.

At the end of the day I really wanted to share this cool 2d short that I fell in love with, with the rest of the group.

Loads of fun!

I just love the Euro style of work. I could watch a whole movie like that.
 
Old 01 January 2013   #35
The best stories, use the archetypes to their advantage to tell a familiar story that resonates with the viewer because the viewer grew up on such types and thus the characters reflect the viewer, in fantasy.

This animated story did just that.
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Old 01 January 2013   #36
I am so confused by some of the male reaction here. Do you guys not have wives or girlfriends? Do you not enjoying having sex with them? Or their female body parts, do you find it repulsive that they try to impress you by dressing sexy?

I mean, you guys act like the dudes raped the women or something.

As was pointed out, they weren't even part of the main moral, but supplimentary, kick starting a new generation. The women at the end also didn't seem to mind being with two epicly powerful men. So why do you?

Males and females objectify each other everyday, it's how you react and respond that matters, and these gents were nothing but.

I'm sorry but I don't want my wife to stop lusting after me, and vice versa. I enjoy my sex life.
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Old 01 January 2013   #37
Great work, people will whine about objectification of women until all the powerful characters are brilliant women and all the male characters are like.. every male on a sitcom, so it's not a real issue. They'll never be content.
 
Old 01 January 2013   #38
Originally Posted by Geta-Ve: I am so confused by some of the male reaction here. Do you guys not have wives or girlfriends? Do you not enjoying having sex with them? Or their female body parts, do you find it repulsive that they try to impress you by dressing sexy?


There is nothing wrong with 'lusting' but I like to think my lovers have more agency than jumping onto my horse after I ride through town as part of my male 'now I am accomplished' journey. (Although I do ride horse.)

This is an enormous overreaction, too. I never even come close to suggesting they 'rape' the women. The problem is exactly the giggly glee with which these women jump on the horses. They are hardly women, they are the author's prize for manly, heterosexual men. I just find that a questionable plot point. If that is part of 'every day life' to you, then so be it. My lovers and I have ways to lust after one-another other than 'every day' objectification.

I have no problem with the women at the bar (for the record) or the women they 'engage' with on their way. That is just part of the journey; these women and these men met and that is wonderful. My simple (small) problem was with the 'now you are a man, now you effortlessly get the women that laughed at you when you were a goon' quip at the end.

And this also (@malcomvexxed) has nothing to do with wishing to reverse roles completely. It is a question of whether the female characters are treated, by the author, as actual characters or as means to an end. I find the 'laugh at them' weak male sitcom characters annoying as well.

I think this hand-waving of 'oh but this is what men and women are like, what-ho!' more disturbing than the animation, where it was just a minor point . Maybe we live on different planets.

EDIT: Sorry for derailing the thread. Perhaps next we can discuss whether the ending cinematic of Starcraft 2 was sexist.
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Last edited by JeroenDStout : 01 January 2013 at 04:10 AM.
 
Old 01 January 2013   #39
Originally Posted by MrPositive: According to the page, nearly half the people that worked on this were women. SciFi and Fantasy has a ton of scantily clad damsels throughout it's timeline so it seems a bit late to want to change that entire framework, unless we go back and clothe Conan's and Bond's girls. Maybe they shouldn't have gotten the girls at the end, but that wouldn't have completed the arc in my opinion. Getting a bit PC with our storytelling paradigm aren't we? One of the kids that get the map at the end is a girl as well right?


Well I don't know about others. But I'm not PC about anything.

Again, it's totally valid to go down this route. While it can sound a bit impersonal, I think when assembling the motion picture anything is fair game to make the running time.

So if they needed sex and objectified women to do it.. That's game. If they use it properly.. that's good. When INTERPRETING the assembly after.. yes.. maybe a couple of things might skew things.. But not for oneself or even select audiences.

One does have to think about the range of people. So maybe it doesn't affect you or me... but some people here think it affected what the short film says.

So on that side (other than expert assembly)... it does sort of matter what tools are chosen for the film's building blocks.

I agree that from a "beauty" standpoint.... you have a symmetric start and symmetric ending.. if that's one chosen form... Then you must have the pick-up women at the end. It's just more symmetric that way. What it means is a different thing altogether.

The concern about whether it reduces the power of "The Mirror Scene" is also valid.. not really from political correctness but from an assembly viewpoint. This scene is the most pivotal... but it turns out it isn't the "last word".

So it's not about political correctness - at least for me.
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Old 01 January 2013   #40
Originally Posted by Geta-Ve: I am so confused by some of the male reaction here. Do you guys not have wives or girlfriends? Do you not enjoying having sex with them? Or their female body parts, do you find it repulsive that they try to impress you by dressing sexy?

I mean, you guys act like the dudes raped the women or something.


Exaggerate much?

Yes I'm lucky that I have a beautiful wife and of course I enjoy her femininity. I merely made the comment that in my opinion it was a pretty cheap way to give them a 'hero's journey' and gave the story a 'frat boy' vibe from the outset. The example of Bond movies was mentioned above which is a good comparison. I haven't really found those entertaining since I was about 15 years old, I guess for similar reasons. Not that I'm particularly offended by them, just that the female characters in those movies are 2 dimensional and lazy. For me a strong female character is sexy and interesting, not a threat to my masculinity.A great example is Lana in the show Archer, she's amazonian with serious curves but she is smart and will kick your ass if she needs to.

Anyhoo.. to be honest I was more put off by the character design than anything else. It lives somewhere in the netherworld between a truly 'flat' design like the old UPA stuff and a fully rendered '3d' look like the classic Disney characters. It didn't really feel like a strong design decision had been made, more that the animators were not comfortable with drawing shapes with proper perspective and volume. Go to John Ks blog for example and you'll see this kind of thing upsets him even more than me, it's kind of a modern thing that seems to be a result of people doing bad copies of the style of cartoons like Samurai Jack (which I love, but in that the design is much stronger IMO and feels like a conscious choice, not a lack of skill). The characters in this (particularly the mouth shapes) made me think of Saturday morning cartoons from the 80s like 'Battle of the Planets' and that's not a compliment in my book.

Cheers,
Brian

Last edited by Horganovski : 01 January 2013 at 05:11 AM.
 
Old 01 January 2013   #41
Amazing short! 9 minutes feel like 30 seconds to me.
 
Old 01 January 2013   #42
Originally Posted by JeroenDStout: There is nothing wrong with 'lusting' but I like to think my lovers have more agency than jumping onto my horse after I ride through town as part of my male 'now I am accomplished' journey. (Although I do ride horse.)

Its not possible for anyone telling a story to cover all bases with all listeners. I am sure if you look at the stories spun by the brothers Grim you could point to all sorts of inconsistencies pertaining to political incorrectness. We are embarrassed and trying desperately not to offend so we take the glimmer out of everything and turn it into a grey mass. We are good and evil and all things, why would you wish to exclude those elements?

There is the human nature part of us in that the majority of the human race acts like the depiction in the animation. You would have to live under a rock and not see that many men and women behave so. There is another part of us that will intellectualize anything,.... really. So you know it isnt correct to depict females in the way the animation does by perpetuating a stereotype, then you turn around and boast about being able to horse ride, and thus perpetuate the male stereotype and actually the core of what the animation is about.

Why would I have to know you can horseride?

So when I see an animation like this I sit back and enjoy the style, pace, flair, freshness and for 9 minutes I had a really good time. 9 minutes in animation terms is a long time to hold an audience's attention and this story does that well.
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Last edited by Kanga : 01 January 2013 at 07:40 AM.
 
Old 01 January 2013   #43
Originally Posted by JeroenDStout:
I have no problem with the women at the bar (for the record) or the women they 'engage' with on their way. That is just part of the journey; these women and these men met and that is wonderful. My simple (small) problem was with the 'now you are a man, now you effortlessly get the women that laughed at you when you were a goon' quip at the end.



You do realize how the world works right? Successful people reap their rewards. That is the point of hard work.

It's the difference between choosing a partner that has no drive, ambition or motivation to succeed in their life, and someone that has proven that they have what it takes to succeed. Laziness is very unattractive.

On top of that, there really exists women that are only in it for the fame and money, sure we may not agree with their lifestyle, but isn't it their life to choose? Just as it is these womens (in the short film) lives to choose how they live it.

In terms of how it affects the end result in the flick, well I see it being successful. The men worked hard, accomplished their goals, and are now reaping their rewards. Whether it be monetary, physical or any other kind, the women could have said no, but they got on the horses willingly and even congratulated each other on THEIR successful catch.
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Old 01 January 2013   #44
What's with all the extreme prudishness?? It is, after all, a comedic, fantasy cartoon. And certainly not a source which -I would hope- people would derive their ethics from.

Besides: wanton lust, sexualisation(of both men and women), and sex as a foremost paradigm has existed for thousands of years in mythic storytelling; from Greece and Rome to the Celtic world to China. Whether we like it or not it has driven the human race both selfishly and biologically for as long as we've existed.

The modern trend of pushing 'PC' finger-wagging to ludicrous heights is utter horseshite.
 
Old 01 January 2013   #45
Interesting how lots of males found it inappropriate while my girlfriend totally loved this piece without a single complaint.
 
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