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Old 01-27-2013, 08:58 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cojam
And Robert, lest we forget, look what happen to Mozart. In fact I think I can name more artists who died penniless and in the gutter than I can that didn't. So while we may value talent, it seems that by the time we realize what it is.. it's far too late.

Nice point. It's all goes from stupid, stupid books and imaginary pictures of what we should strive for to be happy. Where geniuses, talented people are on the highest rank. People are captivated by their art, and somehow think if they value it, people will value them if they become as good. All this literature I was raised at... most writers were not normal or happy people! They were too far away from reality, and then children are raised on their ideas on what is good and bad? The same about movies, which largely form people, as well as any kind of mass-information. The same about any genius. It's not a normal person and barely a happy one. This passion costs them too much. I despise this delusion. People need to be educated what they truly need. And for this we need to go really deep, and not all want to unveil the truth, as it shows some really disgusting things about our nature and also shows major changes need to be done to this sick society.

Last edited by mister3d : 01-27-2013 at 09:02 PM.
 
Old 01-27-2013, 10:17 PM   #62
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Just think of the person who turned down Hitler into the Art Academy of Vienna. Could of been a 60 million lives difference.
 
Old 01-27-2013, 10:22 PM   #63
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I don't buy. What I see, when I look at how things pan out in the internet world is that those who do pitiful art may get pats on the back and encouraged, but they are not consistently getting millions of views and several thousand comments on every image they do. When I look at sites like Deviant Art, the guys getting hundreds of thousands of views and several thousand comments, are usually the professionals who work on real films and cartoons.

Sure, I am sure everyone can point to some example of someone who made absolute garbage and got a million views, but I'm talking about the guys who consistently get it and kept it up for years. It's the those will real talent (or professionals putting content out there like Mortal Kombat: Rebirth)

It is true that anyone can build a following on the internet, and I have seen some things that I have to wonder how people want to watch or read it, but I think the gap between the real professional level talent and the rest is still huge.


Quote:
Originally Posted by XLNT-3d
..and how about the other societies besides "western"?


Most places I've been in Asia are the exact opposite of everything Leigh wrote. It's brutal. I've seen even parents tell their kids they are total garbage and, Why can't you be like so-and-so who is top of the class? It's worse in the business.

I was in a studio in Shanghai and they did a test, or proof of concept, to get a game gig. I remember the client said to studio head, "Why are you working in this business if your quality is so low."

I do think they go overboard here too, sometimes to point of bullying, so I am not saying this way is better. Somewhere in the middle is probably best. After all, artist of low skill should be encouraged, but they must also be taught how to fix. Of course, with that Dunnberg Grubman whatchamacallit Leigh talked about, if they can put their work beside a master and really believe it is equal or better, there is no hope. Then it goes to Mark Twain's saying. "Write without pay until someone offers pay. If after three years no one is offering pay then you know that sawing wood is what you were meant for."

I remember when I walked into the office of Hiroyuki Okiura at Production I.G. and I saw all the drawings on his desk and walls. No one needed to tell me how much I sucked on that day!
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Old 01-27-2013, 10:34 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teruchan
I don't buy. What I see, when I look at how things pan out in the internet world is that those who do pitiful art may get pats on the back and encouraged, but they are not consistently getting millions of views and several thousand comments on every image they do. When I look at sites like Deviant Art, the guys getting hundreds of thousands of views and several thousand comments, are usually the professionals who work on real films and cartoons.


I think you're not looking hard enough. I'm not imagining this - plenty has been written about the increasing "everyone is special" mentality in western culture, where people are discouraged from criticising, where everyone is a special little snowflake, where everything produced by everyone is valuable. To use a non-art example, look at how a badly made, poorly-researched, in some cases outright false "documentary" like Zeitgeist has convinced literally millions of people that they're clued up on a number of different subjects - all because a random, poorly informed individual had a platform from which to broadcast a piece of shit masquerading as something intelligent. They duped millions of people - I still see people quoting that rubbish in debates. On the flip side, an extraordinary organisation like NASA gets attacked and doubted for some of the greatest achievements of mankind. People can't tell the difference between true excellence and achievement and rubbish anymore.

Furthermore, I don't know a single professional who maintains a presence on deviantart. It's a cesspit of adolescent angst and mediocrity, complete with backslapping and sycophantic networking. To use a cruder term, it's a huge circle jerk.
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Old 01-27-2013, 11:05 PM   #65
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you can probably blame Mr. Spock ... er I mean Dr. Spock. He came up with the kinder/gentler child rearing, pumping up the childs ego to make them a better people.

I agree with most of what Leigh said except, and I will always stand by it, people ARE born with a natural talent. Like artist; sure everyone can draw "hey that's a nice horse" ... "umm it's a dog"; or singing, myself for instance, I cannot carry a tune in a bucket and I know it (tone deaf doesn't come close).

My favorite is taekwondo, there are some schools where everyone gets promoted regardless of aptitude. I've seen some black belts from these schools who are not on the same level as green belts (third rank) in a Korean/Olympic style taekwondo school. it becomes a touchy-feely keep everyone happy and not crush their ego's.
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Old 01-27-2013, 11:06 PM   #66
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I don't think DA was ever meant to be more than a free-for-all space for anybody to put whatever they come up with, skill not being important. An instagram of "handmade" "artwork" and lots of traced photographs that try to pass as original drawings/paintings. I had a brief passage there some years ago and besides the number of furry drawings and cosplay pictures, what baffled me the most was that i never saw ONE critical comment, constructive or not. In any of the pages i saw there everything was "awesome", "fantastic", "amazing", "superb".
 
Old 01-27-2013, 11:19 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unclebob
I agree with most of what Leigh said except, and I will always stand by it, people ARE born with a natural talent. Like artist; sure everyone can draw "hey that's a nice horse" ... "umm it's a dog"; or singing, myself for instance, I cannot carry a tune in a bucket and I know it (tone deaf doesn't come close).

But have you spent 10,000 hours on it?
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Old 01-27-2013, 11:23 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unclebob
people ARE born with a natural talent.


Its your legitimate opinion, but i totally disagree with that and i think that's one of the great fallacies of the western civilization in the last century. That, along with the myth that one can become a master overnight is one of the reasons the idea that hard work is overrated got generalized and that its not a matter of what you know or what you did, but who you know.
 
Old 01-27-2013, 11:31 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leigh
Furthermore, I don't know a single professional who maintains a presence on deviantart. It's a cesspit of adolescent angst and mediocrity, complete with backslapping and sycophantic networking. To use a cruder term, it's a huge circle jerk.


Hey now, as a professional who posts regularly on DeviantArt, I can say that the site is actually a wonderf... nah, I can't finish that thought with a straight face. With few exceptions, the place is a shithole.

While there are plenty of comic artists and pro or semi-pro illustrators there, you either need to know which artists you're looking for, or be willing to wade through tons of crap to find the occassional gem. And even among the pros, 90% of what you'll find is pinups. They know their audience, I suppose.

For 3D work, there's maybe 5 people on the entire site that don't rely on Poser or Daz. Or at least, 5 people that have any real skill. Too bad the average Deviant can't tell the difference. I do get a kick out of imagining them running for the hills when I give them a quote for a commission, though. I've had people contact me, thinking $50 (or less) would be enough for something that'd take at least a month of my time.
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Old 01-28-2013, 12:06 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unclebob
people ARE born with a natural talent.


On this, I think it's not a yes/no answer. Some people assume incorrectly that there are those who just have this magical ability to do something with little to no practice or training. That's simply not true in my opinion. To use another music example (it's my background) many people think that Jimi Hendrix came 'from nowhere' and was an amazing guitar player almost overnight. This is completely false, he spent several years as a back up guitarist for many musicians before he got his (tragically short) time in the limelight.
On the other hand, I've taught guitar for a long time and I've seen that some students, when provided with the same information as all the others, just seem to 'get it' faster than others. So I guess their brains are wired in such a way that they have an aptitude for music. That does not mean they don't need to practice though, just that it might be easier for them than others to go further with it.

That is the core evil of the likes of Pop Idol and the like, it promises instant fame and recognition and never mentions anything like hard work, sacrifice and practice as essential elements to getting there.
Really though this is the same thing to me as those who enter the Lottery hoping to get rich. It's the something-for-nothing mentality that is corrosive.

Heh, I guess I've just joined the 'grumpy old person' group with these comments


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Old 01-28-2013, 12:07 AM   #71
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This has been an interesting thread to follow.

Being that art is not my career, I did spend many years in Art School... and I have to say mediocrity was apparent then too, just that most of those students didn't go anywhere. In many of the fields I have worked in (got to pay the mortgage and support my family), mediocrity is an issue there too. (This heavily supports Leigh's comments) There is a disconnect with the new generation that governments and corporations are having serious issues with. So much so, that in Canada many medical support roles now require a Master's degree rather than the Bachelor's degree that was previously required.

That being said, art is a subjective field, which doesn't have the safe guards of other fields. And with the internet, the sky's the limit on how much bad art can be posted. It is hard to weed out the bad artists then if there is no way to prevent them from posting. It's not like being a pilot or surgeon or whatever. (A botched surgery, just overshooting the runway, no worries! Better luck next- you'll get it eventually)

Though a question I have: how much is technology to blame as well? How many people just rely on the computer to do the work- to make it look right? Also, as technology improves and new technology is introduced, maybe it takes some time to master them and get the better examples of art out?
 
Old 01-28-2013, 12:25 AM   #72
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When to be Art turned to be enough to have "Feelings/Expression" or politicizing the "Message" then whole thing got corrupted.
 
Old 01-28-2013, 02:48 AM   #73
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I agree, but cautiously, as I've been affected (as I'm sure many here have) by the adverse effects of the opposite - a destructive feeling of self-doubt which leaves one unsure of whether ones work is actually good.

I personally think it's society that instills mediocrity from every angle, we're brought up to meet goals, aim for targets and pass tests. From the moment we start school, we're taught that a long as we meet the criteria, everyone is happy.

We're never told to aim higher, to exceed those goals. It's the brave few who dare to shoot for the moon that achieve true greatness.

I see it all the time and it saddens me. My Facebook and Twitter feed is full of friends and colleagues who are at uni saying things like 'finally, assignment complete' or 'only 2 more pages to go'. And there's hundreds of these people, thousands even. Every day we're being encouraged to just be 'adequate'. Just do 'enough', nothing more, nothing less.

The problem is, the brave ones are dangerous. They're the ones who make a difference, the ones who change lives and the ones most of us can only stare at in amazement. Whilst society remains as it is, it will ensure that we keep our targets locked firmly on mediocrity.
 
Old 01-28-2013, 03:13 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by entropymachine
Its your legitimate opinion, but i totally disagree with that and i think that's one of the great fallacies of the western civilization in the last century. That, along with the myth that one can become a master overnight is one of the reasons the idea that hard work is overrated got generalized and that its not a matter of what you know or what you did, but who you know.


Actually, this nurture vs nature debate is going for quite a while, and the biggest problem with it is that it totally controversial once we understand the root cause. This is the debate where people are afraid of the answer. Specially if used wrongly.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/13/e...?pagewanted=all

The thing is, we cannot escape the nature portion of it. If beauty allow someone to earn 1 million USD at the age 16 for being a model for a few product advertising, we accept it because we CAN SEE it, even though we understand that beauty is nature. But if someone can get a Master at the age of 14 or something, suddenly there is all kind of group. Some said that it the result of hard work, and some say its genetic.

Recently I'm been following this blog.

http://scientific-child-prodigy.blogspot.com

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...rest-child.html

The reason is that their parent moved to Malaysia (my country), specifically Kuala Lumpur or Selangor (where I'm staying now, KL).

We must understand that if nature can give us people with down syndrome, then nature can also give us the exact opposite.

I personally follow both school of thought. I think nature is just like rich/poor parent.

you can have rich parent and still fail (drug, suicide, etc).
you can have poor parent and still successful (just google rag to riches, the real one, that is)

but if you have rich parent and you really want to be succesful, then its MUCH easier for you.

if your parent are not, then its much harder. For example if you have to work part time, that equal less time on your education.

And at times, life can really throw you a curve ball. Like death of parent, having to take care of siblings, child abuse, etc.

Now you can replace "rich/poor parent" with "many/less talent" and you get my idea.

EDIT:

And this nature vs nurture really goes into complex mode and gender are thrown in. People can readily accept that gender affect strength, to a point qualification are lowered when it come to admission in army, police, firefighter etc. There are even talks about multitasking, attention to detail, etc. But I think I should stop here and let you google, read and understand thing yourself. But let just say this, once people start saying gender affect more than strength, thing are really a problematic storm.

Last edited by fablefox : 01-28-2013 at 03:27 AM. Reason: more info
 
Old 01-28-2013, 03:21 AM   #75
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I don't think mediocrity is being perpetuated everywhere. There are tonnes of high quality art pieces being produced all the time. Look at the latest animated movies, a lot of them look amazing. People who are willing to put in the effort will keep on pushing themselves no matter how many pats on the back they get for the work they've already made.

It would seem to me that the internet has made it easier for people to give honest feedback. I for one feel a lot more comfortable giving honest feedback to a random on the internet who I've never met than to a close friend.
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