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Old 01-27-2013, 05:13 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THX1311
Interesting topic.
I believe that this problem is just a symptom of the Disease of "forced equality for all"
that appears to have been successfully imposed by Western Liberal social Engineers and the numerous, Entitlement minded, marginal performers who benefit from any lack of real objective performance standards .
(School teachers, College "professors", career politicians).


Why do you bring politics and conspiracy theories into just about every thread you post in? Maybe you're just prone to suspecting conspiracies everywhere due to the fact that your profile on this site is a lie - you've been banned here at least twice before, including one profile with your real name. You've persistently used this site as a platform to spread your paranoid fantasies about bankers, politicians and the "global elite" while hypocritically misrepresenting yourself in a dishonest fashion. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

Equality for all is not about molly coddling people or "western liberal social engineering" - equality in the political sense is about the right for everyone to have equal access to education, health care, the right to vote, freedom from arbitrary discrimination (gender, sexuality, etc), and other basic, fundamental human rights that one should expect in a modern, progressive society. As such, I think politics are irrelevant to this discussion. Because ultimately, politicians aren't telling everyone they're special - society is.

A few people have mentioned the internet as a critical element of this rising tide of mediocrity glorification, and I have to agree with that. It's this unfettered international platform that's giving absolutely everyone a voice (not a bad thing inherently) to spread their opinions as fact (not such a good thing). Two decades ago, we got our information from books, journals, magazines and newspapers. We trusted these sources largely because the people writing them had qualifications and demonstrated expertise in their respective fields (well, for the most part - I'm not including trashy celebrity rags which have been around since the dawn of publishing). Referencing and fact-checking were par for the course. But these days, anyone can put any information out there for the whole world to see, and increasingly people are accepting this information without thinking about it critically, or doing any fact-checking themselves.

Similarly, increasingly easy access to technology is giving everyone the ability to indulge creativity on a whim, regardless of whether they've actually put any prior effort into developing any of their creative skills. Suddenly anyone who downloads a crack of Photoshop and cuts a few animé pictures from art on the web, sticks it on a background and blurs some pixels is celebrated as an artist on deviantart. And people's perception of what's good and what isn't is naturally being dragged down because of this flood of crap that's being celebrated as good.

Great art has always been outnumbered by poor art. But I don't think we've ever experienced an age where the crap is praised as much as it is today, simply because we've never before had a platform that's made so much crap available to everyone until very recently. What started as the information superhighway has turned into something else, something uglier. Of course the web still has many advantages, and I think these do outweigh the negatives, but we cannot ignore this increasing tide that's skewed the signal to noise ratio.
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Old 01-27-2013, 05:20 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by mister3d
We are not created to receive critics. It goes against our nature, and tells our instincts it's a humiliation.


I don't agree with this at all, in that it's not something I'd say is fundamentally in our nature. On the contrary, I'd say that evolutionarily-speaking, we are programmed to respond to criticism productively, because it's through correction of our actions that we survive. A young child running towards deep water or about to put something poisonous into its mouth needs a parent or elder to tell it not to do that. This is why children, in particular, are programmed to believe adults (and why indoctrination is particularly effective in children under the age of ten), but there's no reason to believe that we reach an age where that correction of our behaviour suddenly becomes humiliating, unless we live in a culture that teaches us that.
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Old 01-27-2013, 05:33 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by leigh
Do we really want to live in a world of Dunning-Krugers?

My question is: are topics like these being watered down by the impediment to properly communicate and converse in person...like at a bar or at someone's living room? I think so.
I see endless online threads where people regurgitate what they've learned in another thread, driving endless loops of unimportant and uninspiring threads about similar topics no one really wants to learn about or properly discuss with true interest.
I'm sure this thread will eventually be filled with conspiracy theories, witty comments, a movie line, Hitler (he always pops up), etc...
You see, mass information can negatively affect not only art, but human interaction as a whole.
The point is there are always people that will go far an beyond, that will see through the smoke and mirrors. It's just really, really hard to see the ones that do, because our vision is filled with garbage, but that won't stop the minority from becoming great.

We all get to an age where we start to see beyond the adrenaline, where shock is no longer brilliant and where history starts to weed the crowd form true innovators and important figures in a given field. Some people start to realize this sooner than later, but most people get there. This has always been true, it's just so much more visible now, because we live in the century of communication.
Some use this communication advantage to grow and drive their passions, while others use it to satisfy their endless short term needs.

Dunning-Kruger people have always existed, wide spread (mis)communication is making it easier for people to be mediocre, but also making it easier for people to become great much faster.

I believe in people, because somehow we always find a way to go far an beyond. You can't kill this passion with anything, especially widespread mediocrity.
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Old 01-27-2013, 05:49 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by leif3d
You see, mass information can negatively affect not only art, but human interaction as a whole.


Oh I totally agree. I'm taking the art angle because this is an art site - this is a topic I've found myself mentioning a lot in conversation recently, but I was promoted to actually post this after seeing a certain thread elsehpwhere on the site yesterday.

Having said that, I think it's the creative pursuits that stand to lose the most in the short term with this problem of the acceptance and rewarding of mediocrity. I mentioned in an earlier post the example of a wedding photographer, because it's an example that's unfortunately actually already happening a lot - people don't see why they should pay an actual skilled photographer to shoot their wedding, because, you know, anyone can buy a "pro" camera, so why pay someone to shoot the wedding when a cousin can? Bad wedding photography has actually popped up in the news a few times over the last year or two, and yet people still keep going to really shoddy self-professed pros who produce a pile of unbelievably awful photos at the end of it. People use them because they're cheap. Should the really skilled people now drop their rates to compete, because that's what's going to happen as more people are unable to tell the difference between what's good and what isn't.
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Old 01-27-2013, 06:00 PM   #50
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Great conversation, and dang does it cover a wide spectrum of fields and phenomena.

I got this book on marketing and it's from the 1950's, and it proclaims "While the manner of publishing will most definitely change, the guidance in this book will remain valid. Why so? Because it's based on human nature."

And it's true .... the teachings in the book have stand the test of time.

There are certain range of behaviours we are all inclined to act upon. We are social animals with a capacity for reason --and doubt. We like to stick together to form a group, even it means some values that the group shares are not our own. This extends to all sorts of groups. We believe that our sports team is better. We believe that "our" clan in whatever on-line game, is the better one. That "our" country is better than the neighboring one.

Now, in art, what constitutes better? How many likes I can get and the effectiveness of my social connections? How many copies I sell? In what art gallery in NY, London or Milan my work is displayed? The age of the artwork?
These might be some valid metrics that ranks an artwork higher in our social order.

When it comes to the problem Leigh is identifying, we can more than ever democratically reject or accept a certain artwork, no matter who you are. There are no more gatekeepers, no institutions, no academy of arts or a salon that defines the masterpieces for us. It took us the last century to shed this culture of gate keeping by the authorities in their respective time.
You may find it a problem that a great amount of people flock around mediocrity in creative endeavor, but it's part of a social event.

For me, the greatest ranking factor is time, and after lengthy discussions I think this is important. Somehow we need some distance -timewise- in order to know what art was relevant and 'a sign of the times' Some artists have bubbled up over the years that weren't well known in their own age, but have been regarded in hindsight to be valuable, insightful, ahead of their time, an important social rejection against the mainstream, skilled in a manner that wasn't well known in it's day, etc. etc.

That is why for instance the social stream of 'Punk', perhaps mediocre in technical achievement, can still have 'classics' and 'masterpieces' , again not because of the technical skill of the artists involvement, but because of the impact it had on society (for instance a liberation from certain social values, of for punk, the shedding of authority and the mainstream)

In this age, as a species we can by simply clicking define what is great and what is not. We will see new social streams and a redefining of values brought on by new generations (new technology and structures) that will classify what they deem classics and masterpieces. It is an ageless process where art is the result of a mirroring process. We create what is inside of us, and what is in us is at least part rooted in the society we were brought up in, of what groups we cared to identify with.
 
Old 01-27-2013, 06:02 PM   #51
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(Responding to the point about wedding photographers) Is that possibly related to the fact that everyone has less money these days, so we are all looking for ways to save, even if it means dropping our standards? That's not just in art, it's affecting all walks of life right now.

Funny you mention wedding photography. I got married last August and we hired a pro photographer (she was quite reasonable price-wise) who took some wonderful photos. At the same time though, my father also took a bunch of photos. He's not a professional by a long shot but he's a quiet guy I guess and he was able to take a lot of candid photos of people acting very naturally with them hardly being aware they were being photographed. He caught a few moments that are absolutely fantastic and are in some ways superior to the ones the 'official' photographer took, I guess because they are less staged and formal. So in this case the amateur photos will be treasured just as much as the professional ones, possibly more in a few cases.


One question - while this is an interesting debate, a lot of it reads a bit like a grumpy old person shaking their fist at 'those darn kids' over the fence. Does anyone have any ideas how this current situation might be reversed or are we all just grumbling for the sake of it here?

Cheers,
Brian
 
Old 01-27-2013, 06:05 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leigh
I don't agree with this at all, in that it's not something I'd say is fundamentally in our nature. On the contrary, I'd say that evolutionarily-speaking, we are programmed to respond to criticism productively, because it's through correction of our actions that we survive. A young child running towards deep water or about to put something poisonous into its mouth needs a parent or elder to tell it not to do that. This is why children, in particular, are programmed to believe adults (and why indoctrination is particularly effective in children under the age of ten), but there's no reason to believe that we reach an age where that correction of our behaviour suddenly becomes humiliating, unless we live in a culture that teaches us that.


I partially agree with this. Humans had a very long period, when they didn't use any additional tools, which later gave them superiority over wild nature (killing with additional strong devices like hammers, spears etc). But after that, indeed, humans needed to cope with their instincts as those tools could be used to kill each other. We don't have genetical predisposition not to kill each other, actually humans easily do so, as we didn't have initially anything like claws oe dangerous teeth. It's about a very large period compared to when we started using those tools. And our instincts don't quite catch up. So, smart and altruistic also started being needed, rather than just strong and aggressive. That's how this separation appeared. And still, some people are closer to ancient instincts (those who barely cope in our society, except from sports or military services), and there are more clever, easy-learning people (with their instincts suppressed largely, which is also not very good for some reasons). The first type (highly-primative) look dumb and aggressive, but they often can become quite successful due to those traits. Those kids are "difficult", and the society tried to bend them to current needs, but it's not working. Another kids are humble, good learners (low-primative) and generally intelligent. Good middle workers, conformists.
So, first we should remember there are high-primative and low-primative people. High-primative people are unable by their nature feel repentance, and I guess, are very self-protective and will accuse just anyone but won't accept they've failed. They may pretend though.
Low-primative are more to question themselves and are open to criticism, as well to their inner critic (high-primative almost don't have it).
High-primative though, feel the need for the hierarchy, and will listen if the teacher has enough weight for them - status. This comes from listening to the leader. That's why they constantly into any stuff with strong hierarchy, be it even jail. They feel they belong there more than in our life.
Criticism of parents more often goes from an authority position with forcing actions. And it goes from parents, not just strangers (we know they won't harm us intentionally). A kid is a small rightless slave, and that's why it has to obey to adults, not because he is taught so. He just knows he can't (that's what parents like for the convenience of controlling him, as well as society). It has nothing to do with "listening" to advices. When we grow out, we firstly don't want anyone to tell us what to do. Isn't it natural? If someone does, he is to program our life to his vision, control us. That's why we have this "difficult" period, when children actually start questioning if their parents were any good, and they weren't at all often... and we shouldn't love them also at all, whatever society tells us. That's why 90% of the time unasked advices don't do any good. But we trust friends. On the same time it's very hard "trusting" someone on the net you barely know, or any other authority which you're not sure wants any good for you instead of bad (let's agree not all people want us only good things). You must be either in the friends' zone, or have a high enough authority for the person.

Last edited by mister3d : 01-27-2013 at 06:09 PM.
 
Old 01-27-2013, 06:17 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Horganovski
(Responding to the point about wedding photographers) Is that possibly related to the fact that everyone has less money these days, so we are all looking for ways to save, even if it means dropping our standards? That's not just in art, it's affecting all walks of life right now.

Funny you mention wedding photography. I got married last August and we hired a pro photographer (she was quite reasonable price-wise) who took some wonderful photos. At the same time though, my father also took a bunch of photos. He's not a professional by a long shot but he's a quiet guy I guess and he was able to take a lot of candid photos of people acting very naturally with them hardly being aware they were being photographed. He caught a few moments that are absolutely fantastic and are in some ways superior to the ones the 'official' photographer took, I guess because they are less staged and formal. So in this case the amateur photos will be treasured just as much as the professional ones, possibly more in a few cases.


One question - while this is an interesting debate, a lot of it reads a bit like a grumpy old person shaking their fist at 'those darn kids' over the fence. Does anyone have any ideas how this current situation might be reversed or are we all just grumbling for the sake of it here?

Cheers,
Brian


Oh, I should clarify that this isn't a pro versus amateur thing. I totally agree there are loads of amazing photographers (and musicians, painters, writers, etc) out there; my point is specifically about people whose work is really awful but are nevertheless getting clients. Because it's happening all the time.

Personally, I can't really see a solution to this at all :/ Unless, of course, there's a total nuclear Armageddon and the struggling remnants of society left behind will have no choice but to rely solely on the truly innovative ingenuity of the skilled minority amongst them.
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Old 01-27-2013, 06:26 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leigh
Personally, I can't really see a solution to this at all :/ Unless, of course, there's a total nuclear Armageddon and the struggling remnants of society left behind will have no choice but to rely solely on the truly innovative ingenuity of the skilled minority amongst them.



Ah, so you are saying there is hope so .. as that scenario seems more and more likely these days :P

Cheers,
Brian
 
Old 01-27-2013, 06:39 PM   #55
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It's simply society doesn't need a quality output. It needs it being made fast, cheap, available and "wow". Nothing new from pop-art times. It's just we went into a new period when it became more aggressive due to accessibility. Hey, I don't mind people making their own photographs, rather than hiring someone. And if 3d-scanning will be available for anyone and we will be replaced - so be it. This means our time has passed, like the time of oil painting did. It's just artistic quality is the last resort we have, but it's not in demand. 30 years ago taking a photo of DSLR quality was a real craft, and it's faded away. It's like asking anyone to be intelligent. Do we need it to survive? Does society need quality art to survive? If not, it can be omitted (unfortunately for some of us, and fortunately for others).
A poor education also compliments it. Maybe it just became evident how shallow and stupid people are, when you can see it on the net.

Last edited by mister3d : 01-27-2013 at 06:53 PM.
 
Old 01-27-2013, 07:04 PM   #56
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IF you believe this lowered standard of art- acceptance of mediocracy is not only exsistant in art- crap, all you need to do to witness that is go outside for a bit and have a social exchange with someone- 80% of them are @$$HOLES these days- example- no one (most) yield to pedestrians in grocery store parking lots, hard to find good servers and or cashiers, hard to find a hard worker who will do at the very least their job, hard to trust anyone not to take advantage of you.

This is not paranoia- just experience in this world. I have traveled the world and blah blah blah- this is a worldly issue that just some countries experience quicker-

I believe it boils down to the consumeristic nature- now now now- want want want- me me me etc.

No time to go above and beyond- some do but seems less and less each day- perhaps it's the over exposure the few hardworkers have to the vast over-privileged.

This is why I charish the few interactions I have in a month with TRUE/genuine PPL!

I think things have also improved in areas believe it or not:

With the broad and quick exchange of info and exposure of wrongs in the world/world policing- sex slavery, human trafficing, and mal-human treatment in general is now being faced-

Politicians are actually becoming more vulnerable

racism and things of this sort are being brought to the surface- good or bad we are being forced to at least realize how crappy we are as a species and the ALL SOOO MANY WAYS we can still improve.

I do still think some crappy artists make me sick- a local FINE art show had the WORST/ABSOLUTE most despicable simplistic stick figure/kid art done by a "professional" with no knowledge of color theory or composition- going for 100s of thousands of dollars.
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Old 01-27-2013, 07:17 PM   #57
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I think two ancient and archaic words should be resurrected and spliced into the DNA of modern propaganda language: sacrifice and honesty. Imagine what the art of life would be like if artists(creators) sacrificed for their creations and weren't afraid to be honest with themselves and others.


Whenever possible, I tend to trust a philosopher who wears a fishing vest...

"…Absolutely! It's more honest."
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Old 01-27-2013, 07:26 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CKPinson
With the broad and quick exchange of info and exposure of wrongs in the world/world policing- sex slavery, human trafficing, and mal-human treatment in general is now being faced-


It's a positive thing of course that this is coming more to light, but the question then is does it have any actual effect? For example, remember all that fuss about Kony - http://www.news.com.au/world/rememb...v-1226550575923


Quote:
Originally Posted by CKPinson
Politicians are actually becoming more vulnerable

Again, that can only be a good thing. I bet Mitt Romney wishes he had lived in a time before a phone could film him dismissing 47% of the US population as scroungers.

Cheers,
Brian
 
Old 01-27-2013, 07:49 PM   #59
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While I agree with a lot of leigh's post, it can be a hard one to get right. I mean, we all know people who are (in our eyes) fat, ugly, untalented, bad at sports etc. While we are kids we get to call it as we see it, that is we call the fat kids fat etc. and to heck with their feelings. Ginger kids better wear a hat or they will be picked on big time. But once we get to around 13 or 14 the things society teaches us start to kick in, and we become a bit more careful about offending people.

As a personal example, I remember when I was about 7 and the parents day was on in school. Here in Ireland, that's the day each year when parents come down and the teachers tell them lies about what their children got up to during term.
Anyway, my Dad was with me and we were looking at some paintings on the walls that all us kids did. My Dad pointed at a picture and said he liked it. Now the picture had been done by one of the "special" kids, the ones with learning difficulties. So I piped up loud and said to my Dad, "but Da, that picture was done by an eejit". Dad goes red in the face because other parents were present, and he tells me that those kids are "special". I wasn't having any of that old rubbish and wanted to put him straight, and I replied "no Da, they are not special, they are dumb."
I just hope if I ever have kids, they don't embarrass me like that.

The point about all tha this, we only say it as we see it when we are very young. Society teaches us to be a bit more tongue in cheek when we get to our teens and older. Whether that's right or wrong is debatable, ask me again when I'm about 30 and I might have the answer.
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Old 01-27-2013, 08:37 PM   #60
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Funny, last Wednesday I was talking to a bud of mine who is a writer and we were talking also about this.
And I agree most of what Leigh said.

Self delusion is something that I am seeing more and more in the arts across the board in and it is bothering the hell out of me.
We were talking on how a lot of young musicians cannot read music to save their lives.
How a lot current generation Hip Hop artists don't know their own history.
They cannot tell me the difference between Tupac, Biggie Smalls or Rum DMC.

How a lot of young directors don't care to know who people like Capra, Fellini,Méliès, Ford or Copolla are.


For a lot of young artists that i have encountered don't want to be bothered in learning the fundamentals of their trade. They want to be on the big leagues NOW became their self inflated egos tell them that is were they belong.



The American Idol culture has created a nihilistic version of culture where learning the history and foundational knowledge of a craft is for suckers.

I left to believe that Talent is something that we are inherently born with, you like like they are all Mozarts.

Sadly there was only one Mozarts, and what most of can hope to be is a decent Salieri .


And Robert, lest we forget, look what happen to Mozart. In fact I think I can name more artists who died penniless and in the gutter than I can that didn't. So while we may value talent, it seems that by the time we realize what it is.. it's far too late.

As for juging other people, I for one did not study at a School of Fine Art, but it seems that a few online views at youtube is all you need now to be an "expert", that and an attitude.

As for mediocrity, there I think therein lays the problem, in what ever a person tries to do to be supportive is a worthwhile effort in of itself, because even if they fail, there is no way your going to know that upfront, that they are not Mozart. Maybe just maybe, the loss of the apprenticeship, is the real thing that should be mourned.

As for me I see a lot of work on here and elsewhere, and I'll be totally honest, I don't bother to reply, because in this world of twitter, anything more than 10 words is seen as a criticism. And reacted to in general, as it's a personal attack.

Dont believe me? Take a look at some of the items on the top row, look at the comments, either wow...or an opinion with dubious validity. Who can blame the person who created the art in quite correctly assuming that the person commenting didn't go to a school of fine art, rather they just wanted a few youtube videos, and are by definition just trying to make the illusion of their reality become true.

As for taking the time to learn the trade or craft, who has time, because in a youth obsessed culture, the problem is to take that time, means that you'll be too old to compete with those that didn't. And don't worry marketing WILL make up the difference.

Which is exactly what happened on here, when someone posted a link of an animated piece done by a student, who is now on his way to hollywood, was the work better, hell no, but the pre-release marketing sure damn was.

And the above is today's reality, and since we're all drinking from the same kool-aid well - more than ever before, anyone seen as pissing in/on it, is defining themselves as an old curmudgeon that cant compete..ie Salieri.
 
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