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Old 01 January 2013   #31
Originally Posted by AJ1: Someone who has good intentions, is sweet, and knocks out stunning art sounds like a model employee to me.

I don't know what type of studio likes to hire aggressive, self promoting artist, but I sure don't want to work there.


And yet they exist in just about every studio. Often times they are not even that good, but they are the guy going out to lunch with the bosses. I knew a guy who became like that, though he actually was a very good artist, unlike some of the others I have encountered over the years. He said that he learned, over time, that the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Communication, like the man said.

Originally Posted by rafamathard: i don't know if i like the ideia of cg becoming so easy that any one can do a feature filme with good looking vfx, with their iPads, maybe i'm wrong and to stupid to see the benefits, but i don't like it.


That's exactly what's going to happen. Think about where Valve Source Filmmaker or CryEngine's film studio will be in five years. Think about iClone or the doors opened by Poser and Daz stuff.

Now go to any of those sites and look at the extreme range in quality of the output by uses of those tools. The tools are the same for everyone. Cheap, high quality digital cameras didn't put great photographers out of business. Cheap HD video cameras and Youtube didn't make Hollywood close its doors.

In fact, all this democratizing the tools is actually just flooding the market with so much crap it is making those with skill (and the ability to finish something) stand out more.
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Last edited by teruchan : 01 January 2013 at 06:31 AM.
 
Old 01 January 2013   #32
I guess what I'm seeing is the future of the "labor" market is extending beyond the basic mechanical trades it has been associated with for years, to include computer related fields. It's future seems faced with similar competition and wage problems, except on a global scale. Today CG seems an extremely technical trade, requiring an exceptional amount of perseverance and determination. Once upon a time, so did building a computer. Now, the assemble thousands in no time at all.

It makes me wonder what would happen if the human race succeeds at wiping out it's own work force, what will it do? It's already started. Cashiers are replaced with self-checkouts. Tractors run on GPS (global positioning systems), robots construct our cars and package our food, 3d printing machines and CNC machines construct parts from raw materials, drones are capable of self-control / autopilot (google I believe has a car that drives on its own). What will the human race (assuming it continues on this path) do when we've satisfied our every craving, thought, and imagination by way of computer technology that will be dumbied down so that an elite few really only have to know the real complicated stuff, while the rest of us just push a few buttons or key strokes? Where is the human race heading....
 
Old 01 January 2013   #33
Originally Posted by VisitorfromArea51: I guess what I'm seeing is the future of the "labor" market is extending beyond the basic mechanical trades it has been associated with for years, to include computer related fields. It's future seems faced with similar competition and wage problems, except on a global scale. Today CG seems an extremely technical trade, requiring an exceptional amount of perseverance and determination. Once upon a time, so did building a computer. Now, the assemble thousands in no time at all.

It makes me wonder what would happen if the human race succeeds at wiping out it's own work force, what will it do? It's already started. Cashiers are replaced with self-checkouts. Tractors run on GPS (global positioning systems), robots construct our cars and package our food, 3d printing machines and CNC machines construct parts from raw materials, drones are capable of self-control / autopilot (google I believe has a car that drives on its own). What will the human race (assuming it continues on this path) do when we've satisfied our every craving, thought, and imagination by way of computer technology that will be dumbied down so that an elite few really only have to know the real complicated stuff, while the rest of us just push a few buttons or key strokes? Where is the human race heading....


... to boldly go where no man has gone before. duh!
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Old 01 January 2013   #34
you are completly right Terrence, that is with a sight on a 5-10 year plan, perhaps 25. Which is still nothing.
Now if you look another 50 or a 100 years into the future it will look quite different.
In 92 we used a couple of days to raytrace a pencil on a checkerboard with a pointlight. today 20 years after you can knock out 1000s of 4k frames in hours if you forexample exploit the databanks accessible to anyone with a creditcard for super super low prices with render engines that has no settings and yet yeild stunning quality.

Diverse asset access will become more available and quality increase forever. To a point where so much different material is reachable you can customise so easily that the takers wont ever be able to decifer if it was custom made or grabed from a major asset bank that you could customise so easily with a few settings.

Camera work, grading, story, timing, all prefabricated for you with a random slider or made in such a way there were no option to make a mistake based on what highend delivery requires.
250 years from now.

Its not that far away
 
Old 01 January 2013   #35
Thumbs up

Originally Posted by teruchan: And yet they exist in just about every studio. Often times they are not even that good, but they are the guy going out to lunch with the bosses. I knew a guy who became like that, though he actually was a very good artist, unlike some of the others I have encountered over the years. He said that he learned, over time, that the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Communication, like the man said.



That's exactly what's going to happen. Think about where Valve Source Filmmaker or CryEngine's film studio will be in five years. Think about iClone or the doors opened by Poser and Daz stuff.

Now go to any of those sites and look at the extreme range in quality of the output by uses of those tools. The tools are the same for everyone. Cheap, high quality digital cameras didn't put great photographers out of business. Cheap HD video cameras and Youtube didn't make Hollywood close its doors.

In fact, all this democratizing the tools is actually just flooding the market with so much crap it is making those with skill (and the ability to finish something) stand out more.



Yeah...i guess i was too lazy to look at it that way! i stand corrected!
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Old 01 January 2013   #36
Quantity is a side effect of development.
It is not the final destination.
 
Old 01 January 2013   #37
Originally Posted by tswalk: ... to boldly go where no man has gone before. duh!


Unfortunately there is no place for CG in space :/
 
Old 01 January 2013   #38
Originally Posted by VisitorfromArea51: I guess what I'm seeing is the future of the "labor" market is extending beyond the basic mechanical trades it has been associated with for years, to include computer related fields. It's future seems faced with similar competition and wage problems, except on a global scale. Today CG seems an extremely technical trade, requiring an exceptional amount of perseverance and determination. Once upon a time, so did building a computer. Now, the assemble thousands in no time at all.

It makes me wonder what would happen if the human race succeeds at wiping out it's own work force, what will it do? It's already started. Cashiers are replaced with self-checkouts. Tractors run on GPS (global positioning systems), robots construct our cars and package our food, 3d printing machines and CNC machines construct parts from raw materials, drones are capable of self-control / autopilot (google I believe has a car that drives on its own). What will the human race (assuming it continues on this path) do when we've satisfied our every craving, thought, and imagination by way of computer technology that will be dumbied down so that an elite few really only have to know the real complicated stuff, while the rest of us just push a few buttons or key strokes? Where is the human race heading....

I think at this point we can see where it is headed- towards improvement in everybody's quality of living. This isn't anything new. Luddites aggressively protested against mechanical looms because it made their own professions obsolete. Same thing happened over and over again for centuries as automation took over people's jobs. As a result people shifted from doing "dumb mechanical" labor to more creative service-based industries. The price of goods and services went down as a result and an average person today can afford more than the wealthiest people a century ago.

Relating to CG and computer related fields- we might be able to replace thinking/creative process itself with software some day, which would be the next logical step. I like to think of that future as something like portrayed in Wall-E. Minus the whole apocalyptic theme and people getting too fat to walk that is
 
Old 01 January 2013   #39
Originally Posted by VisitorfromArea51: Unfortunately there is no place for CG in space :/

One day CG will make real space :P
 
Old 01 January 2013   #40
http://www.latimes.com/entertainmen...0,1687882.story

On-location filming for commercials in L.A. reached the highest level on record in 2012, climbing 25% in the fourth quarter and 14% for the year, a report says.
 
Old 02 February 2013   #41
Originally Posted by BrainFreeze: I think at this point we can see where it is headed- towards improvement in everybody's quality of living. This isn't anything new. Luddites aggressively protested against mechanical looms because it made their own professions obsolete. Same thing happened over and over again for centuries as automation took over people's jobs. As a result people shifted from doing "dumb mechanical" labor to more creative service-based industries. The price of goods and services went down as a result and an average person today can afford more than the wealthiest people a century ago.
Most automation since the industrial revolution came with new industries which required more human labour. But that hasn't been the case for a few decades now, particularly with the digital/IT revolution. In the advanced indusrialised economies, we can now produce more than we consume without employing everyone. And that's accelerating and spreading.

People who were adults in the 60s and 70s tell me that, while technology has improved as expected, living standards have declined in ways which weren't. Back then, people were a lot more financially secure, had adequate pensions and medical insurance etc, the median household only needed one breadwinner and had positive savings (as opposed to huge debt now), people worked fewer hours etc. There's more to living standards than iPhones.

Relating to CG and computer related fields- we might be able to replace thinking/creative process itself with software some day, which would be the next logical step. I like to think of that future as something like portrayed in Wall-E. Minus the whole apocalyptic theme and people getting too fat to walk that is
So do I, but that doesn't appear to be where we're heading. We're now applying austerity measures and cutting the social safety net despite unprecedented productivity. The post 2008 crash world is looking like the new normal. We're creating artificial scarcity when the real problem is distribution.

The CG labour market is obviously way oversaturated - as is typical of any creative industry. It was always going to happen once the technology became accessible. The only weird thing is the denialism among so many artists. Perhaps they think a positive enough attitude will insulate them from the economic reality..?
 
Old 02 February 2013   #42
Originally Posted by VisitorfromArea51: Do CG artists starve? Seems to me there are so many out there that the competition worldwide must force wages down.


Wages have gone down, but that happens in all industries. There still seems to be work for people and some decent pay scales in the right industry and business models. I would gamble to say that large scale shops and certain industries, like VFX may be a bit cutthroat. However, smaller shops that rely on good personalities and skilled reliable people can still provide great income earning opportunities. Some companies offer stock options, profit sharing and even ownership opportunities which can boost your income and occasionally double it or better.
 
Old 02 February 2013   #43
Originally Posted by XLNT-3d: Wages have gone down, but that happens in all industries. There still seems to be work for people and some decent pay scales in the right industry and business models. I would gamble to say that large scale shops and certain industries, like VFX may be a bit cutthroat. .


Wages do not go down in all industries. Wages are driven by supply and demand. If there's no skilled staff with the right experience wages go up.

Originally Posted by XLNT-3d: However, smaller shops that rely on good personalities and skilled reliable people can still provide great income earning opportunities. Some companies offer stock options, profit sharing and even ownership opportunities which can boost your income and occasionally double it or better.


Where are all these small vfx shops offering those benefits .The ones I have spoken to just offer far lower wages.
 
Old 02 February 2013   #44
Originally Posted by mr Bob: Wages do not go down in all industries. Wages are driven by supply and demand. If there's no skilled staff with the right experience wages go up.



Where are all these small vfx shops offering those benefits .The ones I have spoken to just offer far lower wages.


Okay, as supply and demand fluctuates, wages fluctuate as well. I see the it in engineering, medical amd finance just as well as arts and entertainment.

Not vfx shops, but companies that produce digital content that requires 3d, compositing vfx, gaming and whatever other fun digital content creation activity you want. In industries that are not saturated and not in need of broadcast, film or A title quality.

The best wages and opportunities in the US are most likely with engineering companies and companies with government contracts. Many make larger revenue streams in other areas so they can finance or readily fund their small creative in house teams. Usually kick ass graphics helps to sell all the other services. Its real low profile stuff and most will turn their noses up to it. I can definitely say the pay has been higher, more consistent and secure than any of my counterparts in the entertainment industries. The more indispensable you become to these businesses in these industries, the more the pocket books open up.

Last edited by XLNT-3d : 02 February 2013 at 03:47 AM.
 
Old 02 February 2013   #45
Originally Posted by Artbot: In my 20+ years in the games industry, I have never met anyone with a Masters degree. Maybe a few teachers had them because colleges often require it when teaching, but that's about all they are good for. Unless you are going in the more technical compsci direction, degrees mean next to nothing. Your reel, work experience and attitude are everything on the art or production side of things.


Im going to have to agree with Artbot here Dillster. Ive been working in cgi for 15 years and have never met anyone with a masters? Why on earth would you and your friends think it was necessary to get one? Real studio experience and a great real counts for 1000 time that in this field.

very odd.
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