Potential client upset at my estimate.

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  01 January 2013
Originally Posted by mr Bob: I personally think you are out of your depth and your setting up yourself for a big fail. 7 to 10k for a basic shot and that's with people who know what they are doing on set.

B


id have to agree with his statement unless you're working on a very simple student film with which you're involved in on a personal level.
 
  01 January 2013
Originally Posted by mr Bob: I personally think you are out of your depth and your setting up yourself for a big fail. 7 to 10k for a basic shot and that's with people who know what they are doing on set.

B

That is a 'How long is a piece of string' statement. Client come in all shapes and sizes and the fun part about the whole thing is finding a way to satisfy the customer and yourself. Clients are not only diverse in shape but there is a difference between: what they want, what they need and how much they can pay for. If you are a freelancer you get to juggle all that and know enough, and have enough resources to do the job. Pretty exciting!

There is no way to judge the level the clip has to be from the op's description apart from a general style indication and all clients want pixar level regardless. As far as price goes the entire budget wouldn't be enough to pay for one hi res closeup character model in a top production, but maybe that isnt necessary, we cant tell.

Therein lies the dilemma. Gotta love churning out estimates.
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  01 January 2013
This is why I vow to never do amature hour ever again.

Last edited by x70 : 01 January 2013 at 04:57 AM.
 
  01 January 2013
I can understand the desire to help a new guy out and I can respect that. But honestly if he can't accecpt your bid of $18,500 for 50 shots of VFX work (including 3D stuff). He honestly has NO buisness in the industry. Bad things are going to happen with that guy. I don't know if he's your friend or not but I'd count my blessings that he didn't accecpt it. The good news is now you can look for real work. Send me your CV and reel and I might be able to hook you up.

Last edited by azamux : 01 January 2013 at 04:55 AM.
 
  01 January 2013
Really 18.5 K is nothing. Anyone can raise that on kickstarter or indiegogo. But azamux is right, the guy has no buisness in the industry and you are better off without him. Take a look at the job boards and you'll find somthing.
 
  01 January 2013
In his defense everyone needs to start somewhere. I also agree that my estimate was more then fair and the kickstarter is a good idea. I'll pass that along.
Thanks again for everyone and their input it helped more than you know.
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  01 January 2013
Tell him that for even a small budget film like

The Beast of the Southern Wild the VFX budget was 100,000.00 (source cinefex)

-R
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  01 January 2013
18.5k really is dirt cheap. Count it as a blessing, since the clients that get really good deals usually end up being the worst ones to work for. I don't know why it is, but if they are paying next to nothing, they end up being such a PITA to work for.
 
  01 January 2013
Originally Posted by Lagavulin16: 18.5k really is dirt cheap. Count it as a blessing, since the clients that get really good deals usually end up being the worst ones to work for. I don't know why it is, but if they are paying next to nothing, they end up being such a PITA to work for.


I can tell you exactly why lowballing/ free clients act like jerks.

Well in my opinion the cause for this behavior is quite simple .
The client who gets such deals does NOT respect the CG artists in the first place.

And going back the Cinefex article:

Here is a couple of quotes:

"With an ambitious effect breakdown and a budget initially set at only $25,000...."
"his effects allotment grew to a more reasonable $100,000."

"The film entire budget was a modest $1.5 million;..."

Source CINEFEX 132
Beast of the Southern Wild article by
Janine Pourroy

Rob note:
I strongly suggest to read this article if you are interested in doing VFX for indy films.
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  01 January 2013
Originally Posted by azamux: Bad things are going to happen with that guy. I don't know if he's your friend or not but I'd count my blessings that he didn't accecpt it.


Unfortunately it's not him I'm worried about, it's the desperate cg artists that might be willing to do this job and lose money while doing so.

The over-simplification of how media portrays what we do I think is a large contributing factor in people just not accepting that it costs that much. Surely it's not that expensive to push a few buttons and wait for the computer to make the special effects!
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  01 January 2013
When I bid on low budget things like this and give a quote on the lower end of the spectrum, if the client thinks I'm asking for too much money, sometimes I'll break things down a bit for them. I get it, off the bat $18,000 sounds like a ton of money, especially if you're inexperienced. And they certainly don't understand vfx.

So I'll start and say look, that $18,000 bid, divided by 50 shots = $360 per shot. Then, depending on the complexity of the average shot, I'll explain that it takes say, a solid 10 hours to do each shot. Some will take longer, some will take less, and I don't know the project, so these are just random numbers. So now you're working for $36/hour, not counting render times, revisions, meetings with the client and so on.

So do the math and factor that in as well. So he can see that $36/hour drops even more.

Whatever that number finally ends up being, it's much easier to relate to. He can see that you'd be working for really cheap per hour, and that in fact you're giving him a great price. And then throw in that of course you can get things cheaper. You can hire a student, or a hobbyist, and they'll do it for fun. But it won't have that level of professionalism that you're providing. Your rate is decided because you're a certain level of professional with years of skill and training that these other people don't have.
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  01 January 2013
Not read the whole thread yet but this pretty much sums it up

Quote: this guys is just starting out and I want to see him make it


HUGE red flag, this guy has no money and no viable business case. That is why he is offended. Honestly its VERY common to have this situation i've encountered it so many times now, really you either have to be willing to work very cheaply or just let it go. As a bonus these clients are always the worst to pay up, even when its cheap.

Its just a reality of the design and entertainment industry in general, there is a VERY large gap in pay between high and low end work, in terms of pricing its exponential. Especially as a freelancer.

Honestly though if you need the work and you don't have any at the moment just ask him what his budget is and you can try to come up with a compromise, suggest how he can reduce the scope to get the best impact for his film. 18k is a lot of money for most individuals, despite what people think they are worth. In other-words as a "business case" it makes no sense to spend that on CGI when your starting off. Very risky.

His expectations just may be a bit off, what would you do for a 5k job? etc. Its always going to be like this with indies seriously. Give him options and so on. The bridge isn't burned yet for a smallish job, you wont get 18k though. Give him a call and establish a relationship.

My advice, If you do it cheaply for a guy starting out. Get a stepped payment plan and contract in place, divide it into deliverables, with each "deliverable" having a payment attached. Before the next one gets done. That way he wont be able to screw you over too badly or get scared you want a load of money upfront. If hes legit there will be absolutely no problem with this. Frankly i've been burned by start-ups before and its horrible to be left fucked over after all that work

Last edited by conbom : 01 January 2013 at 11:32 PM.
 
  01 January 2013
If the keys can be done on "automatic" with keylight of something, that can ease the workload a bit. Hopefully he got uncompressed footage. What worry me is the "some minor animated characters." That can be a very long job.

Ask him how much he want to spend and tell him how much time he got for that.
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  01 January 2013
Originally Posted by Michael5188:
The over-simplification of how media portrays what we do I think is a large contributing factor in people just not accepting that it costs that much. Surely it's not that expensive to push a few buttons and wait for the computer to make the special effects!


Yeah this.
I started thinking this a few years ago. I cringe every time I have a conversation with some "regular" person who seems to think CG practically does itself these days.
 
  01 January 2013
Graphic designers and illustrator get the same treatment, especially with the glut of online publishing now. Horrible designs, because anyone thinks they can slap something down and call it design!
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