Real-time graphics and AI in games not getting better? Gameplay is getting boring?

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  01 January 2013
Originally Posted by ambient-whisper: How is the DLC?

Still running through playthrough 2 with zero (my favorite character of all time) and in true vault hunter mode there are missions I still cant nail! I will get the DLC eventually but for now the initial game is more than enough.

Skag soup anyone?
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  01 January 2013
Originally Posted by DePaint: AI code typically isn't very complex, and runs very, very fast compared to physics / graphics stuff.

So unless you are doing AI on hundreds of Non Player Characters on the same map/level at the same time, the AI routines shouldn't slow a game down by much.

Creating better AI is like everything else. You have to keep working on it until it until the end result is sattisfactory...

My 2 Cents


Isnt very complex is subjective. If you want good AI then it gets more complex. That is my whole point.
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Matt Rennie
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  01 January 2013
Originally Posted by MattRennie: Isnt very complex is subjective. If you want good AI then it gets more complex. That is my whole point.


I know nothing about game development, but I guess my question would be while AI can become extremely complicated, is it a resource hog? In other words does advanced ai compete with graphical intensity? Or is it a matter of time management during development, and how much money you want to spend on visuals vs. coding?
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  01 January 2013
Wouldn't AI run off CPU/RAM?
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  01 January 2013
Originally Posted by Michael5188: I know nothing about game development, but I guess my question would be while AI can become extremely complicated, is it a resource hog? In other words does advanced ai compete with graphical intensity? Or is it a matter of time management during development, and how much money you want to spend on visuals vs. coding?


I would say that apart from graphics, the bulk of the resources in a game goes towards AI. Seriously, its not just a few lines of code.
Path finding alone is a MAMMOTH task for a game engine and programmer. The AI has to not only constantly know where it exists in the level, but also where all of the other AI's exist, how far they are each from each other, how far they are from the player, and how far they are from each object in the game. The amount of calculations that just one 'enemy' has to do in a game even before it moves forwards amounts to hundreds of thousands, if not exponentially millions pieces of data.

And that's just for positions. Now you have to add in the myriad of other things the AI has to actually DO.
Then you can add in friendly NPC's, which have an entire new set of problems to overcome.

And this is just for something 'simple', like a first person shooter. The AI for something like an RTS is just staggering.
For a quick look at the complexities of AI, do some research into what is needed to create a chess program. And that's something that has a fairly basic set of rules.
 
  01 January 2013
Originally Posted by MattRennie: Awesome graphics + awesome AI - pretty tricky to do.
As with everything in games development its about balancing your resources.
If you have small simple maps then yeah you have more to spend on processor intensive AI routines, but who wants small maps?
People will then just complain that your maps are tiny and totally miss the point that the AI in them is awesome!
If you want large maps then something has to give, so it's either the graphics/animation or the AI.


game companies improved graphics and physics a lot but so far AI in most games is very bad.
And in some games, it's not even there because in more and more games, everything is heavily scripted.

maybe somebody should be working on a AI engine other games could use in their game..
instead of every game trying to build their own and fail..

and why only small maps ?
I remember the AI in far cry1 and the crysis/far cry serie being pretty good (except crysis2 which was horrible..tiny maps and dumb AI)
and most people have strong CPUS and I'm sure it could handle a lot more complex AI things now than before.
 
  01 January 2013
Originally Posted by MattRennie: Awesome graphics + awesome AI - pretty tricky to do.

This seems like a challenge to me. I've at least shown that real-time raytracing on current/old consumer hardware is possible. I'm sure a team working on an optimized version would blow us away.

A.I. with speech recognition, how hard would that be? So not just path finding, but AI so good that you'd need a Blade Runner test to prove it wasn't a replicant. Something like Siri + game design must be feasible. I think this could open up games to a much more cerebral experience rather than just trigger on the button/mouse type stuff.

Is it not the case that the CPU is sitting idly by whilst the GPU is doing the graphics? Aren't most games single threaded on the CPU anyway, so there is compute power left to do decent AI?

Jules
 
  01 January 2013
Is it worthwhile for engines to support such advanced graphical features that are unusable to 90% of the customer base (console players)? I can't imagine it's economical to develop these technologies which will only potentially be usable on a high-end PC when most of your sales are for consoles.

Unless there is some way to run a GI engine with ray tracing on a PS3 (basically a shitty old 7800GT with 256MB of RAM).

Can't wait to see what the next generation of hardware brings though.

Last edited by Richard7666 : 01 January 2013 at 12:29 AM.
 
  01 January 2013
Originally Posted by Richard7666: Is it worthwhile for engines to support such advanced graphical features that are unusable to 90% of the customer base (console players)? I can't imagine it's economical to develop these technologies which will only potentially be usable on a high-end PC when most of your sales are for consoles.

Unless there is some way to run a GI engine with ray tracing on a PS3 (basically a shitty old 7800GT with 256MB of RAM).

Can't wait to see what the next generation of hardware brings though.


The game can be originally developed for normal displays, and then support for stereo/VR vision is done later since that is most likely just an in-game camera adjustment and changes in render output method.
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  01 January 2013
Originally Posted by Richard7666: Is it worthwhile for engines to support such advanced graphical features that are unusable to 90% of the customer base (console players)? I can't imagine it's economical to develop these technologies which will only potentially be usable on a high-end PC when most of your sales are for consoles.

Unless there is some way to run a GI engine with ray tracing on a PS3 (basically a shitty old 7800GT with 256MB of RAM).

Can't wait to see what the next generation of hardware brings though.

Assuming a 2-3 year development cycle for a game; by then you'd have mobile phones with 16-32 cores (as fast as desktops, take a look at this), PS4 and XBox 720. Plus NVIDIA GTX880 and AMD equivalent.

Plenty of horsepower to do some cool AI and graphics. The question is, will there be games that really take advantage or tired old sequels and recycled ideas?

Jules

Last edited by Jules123 : 01 January 2013 at 01:00 AM.
 
  01 January 2013
Quote: Assuming a 2-3 year development cycle for a game; by then you'd have mobile phones with 16-32 cores (as fast as desktops, take a look at this), PS4 and XBox 720. Plus NVIDIA GTX880 and AMD equivalent.


its funny you mention the amount of cores in cellphones because during ces samsung announced an 8 core processor.

http://www.engadget.com/2012/11/20/...or-in-february/

As for games, i haven't really played mp since unreal tournament 3 even though i have the halos, bf3 and 2. i really enjoy single player games and its so odd because back in the day i was all about quake 2, 3 and unreal mp. i just dont feel the drive to play mp games anymore, maybe if i try i will get back into it.
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Last edited by DuttyFoot : 01 January 2013 at 01:16 AM.
 
  01 January 2013
Originally Posted by BigPixolin: Indie games do absolutely nothing for me. The feel so small and cheap, I don't see what the fascination is about. They feel like free flash games.
What are some of the best indie games? Maybe I have not seen the good ones?


So it cant be fun unless it cost 50 million to make? This whole thread represents whats wrong with gaming.
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  01 January 2013
Originally Posted by ambient-whisper: How is the DLC? I bought it but haven't had a chance to play it yet.

Aw you were talking about rage DLC, I have my head so far into BL2 I missed the gist.
I will have to get the Rage version those then.

Back to the original point. If AI is no good then online live is for you I guess, all those happy spawn point campers
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  01 January 2013
Originally Posted by Jules123: Assuming a 2-3 year development cycle for a game; by then you'd have mobile phones with 16-32 cores (as fast as desktops, take a look at this), PS4 and XBox 720. Plus NVIDIA GTX880 and AMD equivalent.

Plenty of horsepower to do some cool AI and graphics. The question is, will there be games that really take advantage or tired old sequels and recycled ideas?

Jules


We will see what hardware next year's consoles pack, could pave the way for a big jump. Regarding graphics in phones though, there's a reason a GTX 680 is the size of a small laptop.
We're not going to see the current horsepower of a discretr graphics card in a mobile device anytime soon.
 
  01 January 2013
The best AI is when the skeleton is on the other side of the wall, stuck in a run loop trying to get to you.
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