Real-time graphics and AI in games not getting better? Gameplay is getting boring?

Become a member of the CGSociety

Connect, Share, and Learn with our Large Growing CG Art Community. It's Free!

THREAD CLOSED
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 01 January 2013   #46
Originally Posted by MattRennie: If you want large maps then something has to give, so it's either the graphics/animation or the AI.


AI code typically isn't very complex, and runs very, very fast compared to physics / graphics stuff.

So unless you are doing AI on hundreds of Non Player Characters on the same map/level at the same time, the AI routines shouldn't slow a game down by much.

Creating better AI is like everything else. You have to keep working on it until it until the end result is sattisfactory...

My 2 Cents
 
Old 01 January 2013   #47
Originally Posted by BigPixolin: Indie games do absolutely nothing for me. The feel so small and cheap, I don't see what the fascination is about. They feel like free flash games.
What are some of the best indie games? Maybe I have not seen the good ones?


Trine was freaking amazing. Then you have little stuff like Defcon, Braid, Osmos...
__________________
This should take less than a few minutes.
 
Old 01 January 2013   #48
Question

Originally Posted by BigPixolin: Indie games do absolutely nothing for me. The feel so small and cheap, I don't see what the fascination is about. They feel like free flash games.
What are some of the best indie games? Maybe I have not seen the good ones?


Wut.

You're on XBox, right? Check out stuff like Limbo, Trine 2 and Braid on XBox Live Arcade.
__________________
leighvanderbyl.com
 
Old 01 January 2013   #49
Originally Posted by -SD-: Gameplay getting boring? In AAA games? For the most part, AAA games have been in a sad, sad state for years now.

Luckily we have the PC indie scene, otherwise I'd have lost hope in games long ago.


It's so tiresome the way this anti-AAA sentiment is trotted out with such tedious inevitability. I know it's all hip and cool to bash "the man" but contrary to your assertion, there are many great, innovative titles amongst the inevitable rehashing of Madden titles by EA each year. Just in the last year or so we excellent offerings like Dishonoured, Borderlands 2, Skyrim, Crysis 2, the ongoing Assassin's Creed series, Dead Space and many others which has brought great gameplay ideas, storytelling and universes to the gaming world. The upcoming Bioshock 3 is going to rule too. While I don't deny that there are some unoriginal titles out there, I wouldn't say that "most" AAA games are in a sad state. As with most things, the majority are average (playable, fun but not necessarily memorable) with some really amazing games at the top, and some real stinkers at the bottom.

Don't write off most of them just because of those few stinkers.
__________________
leighvanderbyl.com
 
Old 01 January 2013   #50
"They make a fortune in the market just from making new raster graphics chipsets that are 5 - 10% faster than the last one."

I dont play video games, but I found the above quote very true, its a smart (yet sucks for those who want more faster) move on the business side...not saying I agree with it, but its smart on their part. Pretty much all consumer electronic companies do the same thing.
__________________
"SAVE KILLER BEES"

There are no "magic" programs that make you a better artist
 
Old 01 January 2013   #51
Kind of a long thread so I'll take a TLDR position and respond to the OP instead.


Not enough visual innovation?

- Blame market fragmentation. There's too big of a gap between the high end and the low end in the PC market. Developers tend to pander to the lowest common denominator for the sake of sales.

- Blame the economy. In a good economy, we would've seen a PS4 or XBox720 maybe 2 or 3 years ago. Instead, Sony and MS have held onto their tech for as long as possible, opting not to unleash another $400 beast to a market hard up for money. Nintendo has released a few systems in that time, but they tend to repurpose older tech or aim for current gen specs.

- Blame the users, but pity the developers. We go to the movies and get photo real CG. We come home and expect it on our game systems. Apart from the hardware not being up to snuff, developers are overtaxed. We expect LOTR level visuals, but demand NES development cycles. Is it any wonder why artists burn out or work crazy hours? The expectations are unreasonable.

- Blame the tools. Apps like Maya and ZBrush get better with every cycle, but there's still an ergonomic disparity. I can put together a 2D flip of a guy doing a kung fu kick and back flip in a couple of minutes. Getting that same action done in 3D takes longer. The tools are getting better, but they're not quite at the "speed of art." Other mediums are faster.

Not enough gameplay innovation?

- Blame the publishers. Developing a game used to cost about as much as a 6-pack and a pizza pie. Today, they cost as much to make as some movies. Gameplay innovation is in a rut in the same way that the movie industry is in a rut. These things cost a lot to make. Because of that, nobody wants to take a risk. The bigger the studio, the greater the fear of doing something different. Better to play it safe and hack out something "me too" instead.

- Blame the gamers. We say we like innovation, but we like familiarity even more. Look at how many people flipped when Metroid first went FPP 3D. Look at how many people consistently flock to Mario games, even though the new one isn't necessarily different than the last one. We like stuff that we can predict. It's the same reason why movie trailers tell you everything. Unknown quantities are scary. Predictable stuff is warm and safe.

- Blame developers. Even if you could get over that publisher and gamer hurdle, you still have to come up with something new. 30 years ago, new ideas were everywhere. Everybody making a game was making something new because there was nothing before it. There have been thousands of games out since then. There are still new ideas, but getting to them is much harder. The fruit doesn't hang low anymore. As a developer, the longer the industry stays around, the higher they'll have to climb that tree for the nummies.

Not enough AI innovation?

- Blame the hardware. Not today's hardware. YESTERDAY'S hardware. That's the one most developers target. The algorithms for smarter AI are there. It's just that the common PC isn't often up to the task.

- Blame the games themselves. There's more to a game than the AI. If all you had to code was AI then you could make something magical. However, you've got to balance that load alongside audio, visual, and gameplay requirements.

Not enough innovation period?

- I don't blame you for thinking that. Games are in a period of transition. The consoles are old and long in the tooth, just hanging on long enough for the next gen to arrive. PCs are evolving again, as multi-core and touch are getting into the mix. Portable gaming has seen the introduction of tablets. Online transactions and monetization are changing really the way we play.

It's an exciting time to be a gamer, but it's also a period where the path to the future isn't yet 100% clear. It won't always be this slow. I remember this same dread in the air at the end of the 16-bit generation. Every game was the same. Smaller, better games got buried. You just have to be patient. Things will work out. A few things have to fall into place first.
__________________
DISCLAIMER: The views presented herein do not necessarily represent those of my brain.
 
Old 01 January 2013   #52
Originally Posted by leigh: I know it's all hip and cool to bash "the man" but contrary to your assertion, there are many great, innovative titles amongst the inevitable rehashing of Madden titles by EA each year. Just in the last year or so we excellent offerings like Dishonoured, Borderlands 2, Skyrim, Crysis 2, the ongoing Assassin's Creed series, Dead Space.
I have never been one to hop on trend trains, so I'm not "bashing the man" as you, in your prejudism, stated.

It's a sad fact that all AAA games are directed at casual gamers these days. That leaves us, who'd like to see well-produced games to offer a more sophisticated, deeper, mature and (dare I say!) more demanding experience, sighing in sadness. It's quantity over quality, these days - have to satisfy the lowest common denominator.

2012 was a particularly sad year. Of the games you mentioned, Crysis 2 is a prime example of a typically bad modern game (huge step back from Crysis) and none of those listed are that innovative. Just same old, same old, in a slightly different package.

Sometimes I wish that the "games industry" we have nowadays would die so that there'd be a much-needed reboot...
 
Old 01 January 2013   #53
Originally Posted by leigh: Wut.

You're on XBox, right? Check out stuff like Limbo, Trine 2 and Braid on XBox Live Arcade.



Yeah I actually have Limbo. Briad to me looks like one of those cheap flash games. If I take a time machine to the 80's Braid may be interesting to me. It is also one of those ones where the character just doesn't click with me. I simply do not like the style.
Limbo was alright it had a cool atmosphere, but it took like 30 minutes to beat it or something. Trine 2 does look about as good as a indie game can get still small in scope though, I will give it a try. Things like Slenderman and Super Meat boy I hear all the time, but just looks so stupid. I played Slenderman and I just cannot get into that low level of craftsmanship just because it is a novel idea.

Originally Posted by noouch: Trine was freaking amazing. Then you have little stuff like Defcon, Braid, Osmos...


I have Osmos on my Note 2, I played a few levels but got boring really fast.
 
Old 01 January 2013   #54
Originally Posted by -SD-: I have never been one to hop on trend trains, so I'm not "bashing the man" as you, in your prejudism, stated.


I love the way you accuse me of prejudice and then immediately follow it with this titbit of pointless, self righteous, entitled snobbery:

Quote: It's a sad fact that all AAA games are directed at casual gamers these days.


I stopped reading your post at that point.
__________________
leighvanderbyl.com
 
Old 01 January 2013   #55
Quote: "They make a fortune in the market just from making new raster graphics chipsets that are 5 - 10% faster than the last one."


Not sure where you are getting your data from :

- NVidia's Kepler GPUs are almost twice as fast as the previous Fermi generation (not accounting for architectural "force multipliers" like the Hyper-Q and dynamic parallelism)

- PCI-3 double the bandwidth (a critical element of a GPU tracer if ever scales to a game level)

And the list goes on.

The crux of the matter however is that most games don't get close to exploiting this modern hardware because they still target the 8 years old specs of the PS3 and XBOX, which is where the money is...

Mostly agree with the other comments about stale art direction and game design though.
 
Old 01 January 2013   #56
Originally Posted by Michael5188: I disagree. While getting rid of the helmets would be great, the helmets are filling your view, peripheral and everything, with the game, which alone would make for a huge difference in experience.

But as well as that turning your head transfers as looking around in the game, something else I think is huge. So it's a much bigger leap than 3d glasses, in my opinion.

As far as realism- I'm pretty sure no matter how real games look, the fact that we know it's not real will make all the difference. As someone previously mentioned, much like lucid dreaming.

It's why I can watch the landing at Normandy in Saving Private Ryan, be moved and disturbed during it, but leave without PTSD. Seeing a single person get shot in real life would probably change me forever. (though this is creeping into the games cause violence discussion we had earlier)



No no.. Apparently you guys don't have lucid dreams the way I did in that "Black Hawk Down Death Sequence dream" I REALLY thought I was going to die. I'm telling you there's a limit to what your perception can take! Even if you know it isn't real... if you can FEEL it happening it doesn't matter.

But if the goal is just a bunch of screens/helmets, some new "Super-Wii" peripherals...Something to just "keep the danger at arm's length" I'll be fine.
__________________
"Your most creative work is pre-production, once the film is in production, demands on time force you to produce rather than create."
My ArtStation
 
Old 01 January 2013   #57
I really like the AI at the moment. I am going through Boarderlands 2 and those bots, bandits and critters are pretty crafty. A wee bit of ray casting on my part and they take cover. I rush in blasting and those AI beggars Mister Miyagi me with bullet dodging techniques that will get you respawning in no time.

I suppose you might be disgruntled over graphics if you grew up with advanced tech, but when it started all we had was space invader stick figures. If we could have seen Skyrim and Halo at that time we would have had multiple visugasms.
__________________
The terminal velocity of individual particles is directly related to pink rabbits on a bank holiday.
Characters, Games, Toys
 
Old 01 January 2013   #58
Originally Posted by Kanga: I really like the AI at the moment. I am going through Boarderlands 2 and those bots, bandits and critters are pretty crafty. A wee bit of ray casting on my part and they take cover. I rush in blasting and those AI beggars Mister Miyagi me with bullet dodging techniques that will get you respawning in no time.

I suppose you might be disgruntled over graphics if you grew up with advanced tech, but when it started all we had was space invader stick figures. If we could have seen Skyrim and Halo at that time we would have had multiple visugasms.


Rage had interesting AI. I loved how the enemies would take different paths to get to you jump railings, go from level to level. Cool stuff all around.
 
Old 01 January 2013   #59
Originally Posted by ambient-whisper: Rage had interesting AI. I loved how the enemies would take different paths to get to you jump railings, go from level to level. Cool stuff all around.

I loved Rage, still play it every once in a while.
!
__________________
The terminal velocity of individual particles is directly related to pink rabbits on a bank holiday.
Characters, Games, Toys
 
Old 01 January 2013   #60
Originally Posted by Kanga: I loved Rage, still play it every once in a while.
!

How is the DLC? I bought it but haven't had a chance to play it yet.
 
Thread Closed share thread



Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
CGSociety
Society of Digital Artists
www.cgsociety.org

Powered by vBulletin
Copyright 2000 - 2006,
Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Minimize Ads
Forum Jump
Miscellaneous

All times are GMT. The time now is 01:11 PM.


Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.