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Old 12-26-2012, 11:54 PM   #16
ThE_JacO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dillster
AJ is right. More frames means less blur between each frame, which gives sharper motion and slow motion.

No, really not.
The moblur is determined by the shutter time. If you shoot 48 at 360 degrees the blur per frame is exactly the same per frame as if you shot 24 at 180 degrees (which is the standard cinematic look blur wise).
If you shoot 24 fps with the shutter at 1/500th every frame is going to be crisp as even during action.

Hobbit was shot mostly at 270 with a forward bias, which means if you drop frames and play it at 24 it's almost exactly the same blur as if it was shot natively at 24 180degrees.

The higher framerate IS the cause of the added temporal resolution and what gives a lot of people the video feeling, and the slight fast forward on some shots feeling. The blur within the frame has very little to do with it.

As for both eyes being shown simultaneously, it depends from the projection. Most projections DO NOT have concurrent double beams, and rather alternate the two with different polarizations.
There's also the discussion about how many flashes per frame a projector does (most will flash the image twice or thrice for every frame at 24), and whether it's adequate to show sufficiently frequent flashes of each frame even at 48 (which again, most projections aren't).

Lots of conjecture and mis-information, but it seems at the end of the day very few people actually have a solid idea of what shoots and projections work and how they correlate...

And there is no such thing as 24fps being what the human eye is comfortable with, let alone in stereo.
24 fps was chosen back then as the cheapest you could get away for issues related to audio recording on shoot, not even for it's visual qualities.
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Last edited by ThE_JacO : 12-27-2012 at 12:16 AM.
 
Old 12-27-2012, 12:07 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jumamu
Have i missed something or have you guys missed something?

You seem to have missed mostly everything

Quote:
48 frames in 3D stereoscope means that it has 48 frames together in second.
You got only 24 frames for one eye - which means that together 2x 24frames = 48 frames.
So the image will be not any smoother than before when you compare it to 2D movie.

No.
48 fps, or base HFR rate, is 48 PER EYE.

Quote:
In "normal" 3D movie you got only 12 frames per eye which means 12 frames x 2 = 24 frames,

Nope, again, 24 PER EYE.

Quote:
this motion will be showed separately - from these 24 frames: every other frame will be showed for one eye only and because eye can not separate those images it will show those frames in same time (the left and right image - we can not change shutter speed of eyes) and that will generate "fake motion"/stop-go/robotic motion - i guess that it might be also the cause of headache but i have never get headache in 3D movies.

Again, no.
Each frame is ALWAYS flashed multiple times in 24 fps, and each eye is flashed multiple times. Either through two differently polarized beams, or an alternating one.
You're normally shown a minimum of 96 flashes per second in stereo 24, with each eye being flashed twice per frame.

Quote:
And the 2D movie has 24 frames and we see all those frames with both eyes (in same time) that makes 48 frames together.

huh? not really, you see 24 frames, you just see the same with both eyes, allowing your brain to realize it's a moving picture and not trying to sort its depth.

Quote:
Sorry i didn't read all messages from this topic, so somebody have maybe already told this.

Luckily nobody had told this, because it's mostly rubbish

Quote:
And all this limitations are because of technical limitations. Sure these days we have much less limitations but we have get used to 24 frames per second motion.

Technical limitations of what? Mostly it's installation limitations, because technically speaking there are plenty systems out there that can do multiple flashes with split beams at 48 fps stereo.
Most projections out there, and with most I intend the largest majority, are seriously, seriously flawed and badly done. The difference when you see some stuff we (vfx shops) do in our own theatres that are carefully calibrated and usually (technically) top of the line, and what you see later in the cinemas, is horrific.

Chances are most people in the world, since most tend to always go to the same two or three screens, have never seen a truly perfect projection in their life, ever. Yes, it's that sad.
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Old 12-27-2012, 09:16 AM   #18
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Thanks for post, Raffaele.

I'm a bit of an amateur, and it's always great to hear from the pros.
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Old 12-27-2012, 10:42 AM   #19
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But those are all refreshing updates (i was talking about new frames), the projector will update the same frame double time or more (in some cases, depending from source fps). I guess, they do not have that 48frames in 2D movies, it (24fps) will be only updated / refreshed twice? It would be just insane to have same data in double.
And those are technical limitations because of electricity (sure you can change it now days in way you want but it was before the technical limitation when they decided to choose 24fps/25fps/30fps/50fps/60fps).
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThE_JacO
Chances are most people in the world, since most tend to always go to the same two or three screens, have never seen a truly perfect projection in their life, ever. Yes, it's that sad.

What are you trying to say? That there are theaters which do not have true perfect projection? Really? :S` That might be the reason why people do not love 3D. I have always seen 3D movies which have robotic/unsmooth motion and also they are very dark... And all of them have been using active glasses.

And i did mean something else, when i said: in 2D movies you see "48 frames" - 24 frames [if those images would be calculated by your both eyes, you would "see 48frames" (but remember that the eyes can only see 10-12 frames if i remember it right), but sure.. brains do not understand that they are two "different images"] I was just trying to compare it to 3D / stereoscope movie - when your both eyes see different images (different angle) and that's why you see 24 or 48 fps together (when you calculate both images).

But i must admit that i didn't explain my self so clear. And this would be much easier to me if I would speak native english perfectly.

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...om-24-to-48-fps <-here they are saying that: "By shooting at 48 fps, itís possible to show 24 fps to each eye through a pair of active glasses"

http://www.videomaker.com/videonews...on-24p-must-die http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refresh_rate <-and here are some (not much, but something) info from the past, when technical limitations made us to choose 24fps.

Sure these days we do not have that much limitations.

But if i am wrong, please give me the links for the correct info (articles, wikipedia etc), i don't want to be wrong.

Last edited by jumamu : 12-27-2012 at 01:50 PM.
 
Old 12-27-2012, 01:45 PM   #20
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Thanks for information so far. If it is fair to say motion blur is not a factor in the 'video look', then may we explore other reasons?

Is the 'video look' locked and captured into each frame on a 48fps shoot? Or is something our minds struggle with based on our experiences watching video shot content from the past ? If it is 'all in our minds', what can a studio do to lessen the effect physically? Or do we simply wait for attitudes to change?
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Old 12-27-2012, 08:18 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jumamu
But those are all refreshing updates (i was talking about new frames), the projector will update the same frame double time or more (in some cases, depending from source fps). I guess, they do not have that 48frames in 2D movies, it (24fps) will be only updated / refreshed twice? It would be just insane to have same data in double.
And those are technical limitations because of electricity (sure you can change it now days in way you want but it was before the technical limitation when they decided to choose 24fps/25fps/30fps/50fps/60fps).

What are you trying to say? That there are theaters which do not have true perfect projection? Really? :S` That might be the reason why people do not love 3D. I have always seen 3D movies which have robotic/unsmooth motion and also they are very dark... And all of them have been using active glasses.

And i did mean something else, when i said: in 2D movies you see "48 frames" - 24 frames [if those images would be calculated by your both eyes, you would "see 48frames" (but remember that the eyes can only see 10-12 frames if i remember it right), but sure.. brains do not understand that they are two "different images"] I was just trying to compare it to 3D / stereoscope movie - when your both eyes see different images (different angle) and that's why you see 24 or 48 fps together (when you calculate both images).

But i must admit that i didn't explain my self so clear. And this would be much easier to me if I would speak native english perfectly.

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...om-24-to-48-fps <-here they are saying that: "By shooting at 48 fps, itís possible to show 24 fps to each eye through a pair of active glasses"

http://www.videomaker.com/videonews...on-24p-must-die http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refresh_rate <-and here are some (not much, but something) info from the past, when technical limitations made us to choose 24fps.

Sure these days we do not have that much limitations.

But if i am wrong, please give me the links for the correct info (articles, wikipedia etc), i don't want to be wrong.


There's no framerate per eye in 2D films. A digital projector has a certain refresh rate, I don't know what it is for theaters, but for instance on the average computer monitor it is 60hz, which 24fps does not go into evenly. I would think a film projector can probably adjust the speed for the film so that it doesn't have to repeat frames.

For 3D in theaters it uses a passive 3D system, where there are two images that are filtered and projected at the same time on the screen, the glasses have lenses that filter out the opposite image. Passive 3D works just like a regular film and doesn't have a specific framerate per eye, it's the same for both eyes. Active 3D is different and whatever refresh rate that the display uses gets cut in half because it rapidly alternates between the frames. 3D TV's or monitors are at 120hz which ends up at 60hz when displaying 3D. That's so that it can match the standard refresh rate of displays at 60hz. Still way above 24fps that films are at at the moment. I don't think there's any theaters that use active 3D, maybe some special premiere showings.

Also, people can perceive way beyond 24fps, I don't know if there's an exact number but I notice a difference between 60fps and 120fps (which by the way is awesome for working in 3D)
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Last edited by darthviper107 : 12-27-2012 at 08:21 PM.
 
Old 12-27-2012, 08:57 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darthviper107
There's no framerate per eye in 2D films.

Of course there is no frame rate per eye in 2D, but i was just comparing it in the way like it would have even if it doesn't. English is so hard language, or maybe i just think too complex way.
 
Old 12-27-2012, 09:07 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darthviper107

For 3D in theaters it uses a passive 3D system, where there are two images that are filtered and projected at the same time on the screen, the glasses have lenses that filter out the opposite image. Passive 3D works just like a regular film and doesn't have a specific framerate per eye, it's the same for both eyes. Active 3D is different and whatever refresh rate that the display uses gets cut in half because it rapidly alternates between the frames. 3D TV's or monitors are at 120hz which ends up at 60hz when displaying 3D. That's so that it can match the standard refresh rate of displays at 60hz. Still way above 24fps that films are at at the moment. I don't think there's any theaters that use active 3D, maybe some special premiere showings.

Also, people can perceive way beyond 24fps, I don't know if there's an exact number but I notice a difference between 60fps and 120fps (which by the way is awesome for working in 3D)

I also know that in passive glasses the images will be showed at the same time because they are using polarizing technique. And here we have pal system, and electricity is using 50Hz, so 50frames here. But here we have active technique in theaters: http://www.finnkino.fi/cinemas/3d_info/ <-there they are saying: "3D-aktiivilaseilla (shutter glasses)", that is active glasses.... I start to bore to this conversation, i will end it in here.

Last edited by jumamu : 12-27-2012 at 09:11 PM.
 
Old 12-28-2012, 11:00 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grrinc
Plus I'd still like to know why the prop making guys and the set making guys ( and the lighting guys ) need to 'up their game' - as some people have suggested here. Why would a set or prop look more fake just because an extra frame ( picture? ) has captured it?


Prop and set dressers don't need to up their game - I'd put that down as an inability of critics to properly assess and critique what they don't like about the higher temporal sampling of 48fps rather than a critique on the level of detail within the props and sets - both of which are done to a very, very high standard in NZ.

The only change shooting at a HFR has on a production is that higher light levels may be needed. And that's solely because when you increase the frame rate you may* have to increase the shutter speed.

*As Jaco points out, 24fps is primarily shot with a 180deg (or 172.5deg, but let's not get into that) shutter where each frame is exposed to light for 1/48th of a second - effectively the film is only exposed to light for half of a frame per second. That means if you shoot at 48fps and use a 180deg shutter then each frame is only exposed to light for 1/96th of a second. If you use a 360deg shutter then each frame is exposed for 1/48th (exactly the same time exposure as shooting at 24fps). A 360deg shutter is something only possible with digital cameras - on a film camera you need a certain amount of time where the film isn't exposed to light for it to physically move to the next frame.
 
Old 12-29-2012, 04:48 AM   #25
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long exposure = more blur not more or less frames.

However

More frames = more detailed actions (like sports in motion showing the bending of hockey sticks during slapshot)
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Old 12-29-2012, 04:48 AM   #26
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