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Old 12-18-2012, 12:00 AM   #46
taffy77
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Its funny I appreciete that he is trying to help the VFX community in LA but I don't like how many keep complaining that other countries are stealing there industry. I have been thinking about this alot as I know many good vfx people looking for work but also many bad artists complaining there is no work.

First why have they not gone after immigration and expel every non american from facilities here in LA. I know many who work in all the big houses from mid level artists to the very top. Why not target those people to claim your jobs back or is it a case of you actually have a shortage of many skilled people in this industry?? Purely a question and nothing is meant by it but even last week I know of non americans starting at facilities in LA/ San Fran.

Next is the question of your right to specific work. Lets look at the hobbit. A british book, Kiwi Director, mainly non american cast so why should you create the vfx for the film. Remember studios source funding from venture capatilists outside the states so often non american money is employed to finance the films we all make. Some would say some americans are taking advantage and profiting on culture/ writings and work from the rest of the world so why should the VFX not be done else where.

And yes subsidies are the target to create a fair bidding environment on the surface but then what. How will you combat countries with lower wages, free overtime and all that jazz. Because studios by nature want to get the best price so even after all this they will still go to the cheaper countries which traditionally is not the USA. So rather than go after subsidies I think getting all the facilities together is the only way we may get some normality in this industry. Until then little will change.

Dont jump down my throat they are observations

Last edited by taffy77 : 12-18-2012 at 03:04 AM.
 
Old 12-18-2012, 12:45 AM   #47
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Old 12-18-2012, 03:45 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taffy77
Its funny I appreciete that he is trying to help the VFX community in LA but I don't like how many keep complaining that other countries are stealing there industry. I have been thinking about this alot as I know many good vfx people looking for work but also many bad artists complaining there is no work.

First why have they not gone after immigration and expel every non american from facilities here in LA. I know many who work in all the big houses from mid level artists to the very top. Why not target those people to claim your jobs back or is it a case of you actually have a shortage of many skilled people in this industry?? Purely a question and nothing is meant by it but even last week I know of non americans starting at facilities in LA/ San Fran.

Next is the question of your right to specific work. Lets look at the hobbit. A british book, Kiwi Director, mainly non american cast so why should you create the vfx for the film. Remember studios source funding from venture capatilists outside the states so often non american money is employed to finance the films we all make. Some would say some americans are taking advantage and profiting on culture/ writings and work from the rest of the world so why should the VFX not be done else where.

And yes subsidies are the target to create a fair bidding environment on the surface but then what. How will you combat countries with lower wages, free overtime and all that jazz. Because studios by nature want to get the best price so even after all this they will still go to the cheaper countries which traditionally is not the USA. So rather than go after subsidies I think getting all the facilities together is the only way we may get some normality in this industry. Until then little will change.

Dont jump down my throat they are observations


I believe if you read the opening paragraph on the page for the fundraiser you'll see this is not about LA. We certainly don't want to kick anyone out either. It's about real growth and seeing films come from all countries, not just the United States. I wrote a summary that got posted further up as I'm a newcomer. Although it's true most of the work done by the shops in NZ, UK, OZ, and Vancouver are for American companies and that a small percentage of the funding comes form foreign banks you have to wonder why there has never been one tentpole vfx film from Canada....they are certianly capable of making one... as you'll read ...you'll see why. Personally I would love to see that happen, but it won't as long as these 6 studios from the USA run content and distribution of VFX films like the media mafia with your politicians in there back pocket.

Naturally some anger is present about this one way street where our jobs left and the world gave nothing back in return but we don't blame the shops or the artists, it's the politicians and the studio exectutives. Our nations made an agreement not to do this, that is what we are questioning. I mean imagine if a group of LA investors offered the Canucks a shiny new arena, fat paychecks, and bay watch girls....all paid for by good ole USA tax payers...You'd probaly declare your first war, taking Seattle first and work you way south to reclaim what is yours burning everything in your path : ). I put a smile there but part of actually believes it's the truth after being in Vancouver the day the Bruins won. anyway.....

If you knew we had no case there would be no fear, So much fear in our business, killing creativity, but they love to pump us full of it to where we are afraid to use our real names when we speak of our futures. I'm not. If anyone were ot be blacklisted it would have been me, and long ago.

It is and always will be about talent and branding.
 
Old 12-18-2012, 05:00 AM   #49
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VFX Soldier is correct. If there is already essentially a "No Poaching" agreement that's legally binding by international rules the laws are definitely being broken/ignored and it's not being investigated because in the grand scheme of things the VFX industry is a little fish. Regardless of the outcome it needs to be investigated and subsidies to poach American film company dollars should be eliminated because it's illegal.
 
Old 12-18-2012, 05:50 AM   #50
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I guess the fact that most profit from films comes from the foriegn market is interesting. So we are in fact funding the productions. Currently international box office accounts for nearly 70 percent of income, they are projecting this to rise to 80 percent in the coming years as the Asia markets continue to grow at an astonishing rate.

Can you confirm that a small amount of funding comes from foriergn sources??As these days the finacial industry is a global market and is not most of US finances borrowed money form other countries Here is great link on how they have previuosly financed a film without using there money.

http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/...lockbuster.html

Remember Sony is a non american company, others have european branches. Warner brothers actually owns and runs a film studio in london. I think it was Avatar that 60 percent of the finances came from outside sources many non american. I digress, like i said i think there is a bigger issue and going after subsides is just going to cut vfx productions as they do not have the money in the short to medium term.

I agree things need to be sorted but I think little will change in the US until you restructure your industry and expectations. Along with that I think the major vfx facilities need to come together and stop beating each other down.

Last edited by taffy77 : 12-18-2012 at 06:40 AM.
 
Old 12-18-2012, 09:10 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabab
There is still a lot of reasons to hire someone from the UK if your UK based for example cultural and language barriers also since your in the same country you have legal protection and things like NDA's stick so you can do sensitive work...


NDA's are effectively like EULA's, companies want you to believe that they are law, and repeat it ad nauseam and so most unsurprisingly believe they are law. But if you've ever had to deal with lawyers regarding broken NDA's and try to recoup anything, the vast majority will tell you, it's a pointless exercise.

To say culture and language based, again might have been relevant 10 years ago, not anymore, just look at the people and the countries that are represented on here. And remember the language that your talking is not English, you talking the language of art and film. That is global.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabab

Ask yourself how much can you influence your own local government? not all that much.. You can get all worked up about this issue and beat your head against the wall but nothing will change, use that energy on something more productive...


That sound like an ostrich with it's head in the sand, you're asking people, like many a government, NOT to think, your asking people who signed on to DD Florida not to see what's coming. Your asking people not to connect the dots.

Personally I think that's absolutely the worst advice anyone can give.

I also think that its absolutely amazing that so many people on here, not only see the "art" but the business end of it, even college students, because armed with that knowledge and with the ability to think through their initial excitement of job offers, only then will you see less people pack up and move their whole family (like the DD story or the ILM case), where not long after doing so they get screwed. (I thought it was really telling image, the cop cars in the DD lot when everyone got told - leave, is that the future you want for everyone?)

Remember that only when you look and understand the past, can you ever possibly hope to see the future. So ask yourself,
Why did all those companies close?
Did the work just dry up? Did it move? If so where to and why?
What relevance does the country you're in play? Where is and will the industry go in your country?
Why are only some of them being acquired? What's the endgame of these subsidies?
Do you, or will you, want to be part of that future?
Or is your art and skills better served in a different section of the industry?

I ask these not for me, but because I'm sick to death of hearing these stories of young people getting screwed over, by corporations that care nothing of them nor the country their in, just the dollar.

And if you want a battle that you can win, then your ONLY weapon is your mind, so maybe now you can see that's what I'm asking people here to do, use it, not just for today, or this thread, but for their tomorrow, and hopefully a better one.

Last edited by cojam : 12-18-2012 at 09:22 AM.
 
Old 12-18-2012, 12:58 PM   #52
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Quote:
It actually just generally comes off as hypocritical for Americans, who are always going on and on about their capitalism and the right to ruthlessly chase profits, to then get upset when other countries do it.




I usually steer well clear of these conversations, but that post reeled me right in. You understand that subsidies are state sponsored discounts correct? As such, subsidies are NOT in fact true capitalism. It is an artificial manipulation of the market and yes it happens in many industries in the U.S. and yes MANY people are actually upset about it. This one person (VEFSoldier) is simply trying to have an effect where he can against the particular state sponsored manipulations that are affecting his personal industry. Seems like a normal reaction to me. I will say that if anything about this is hypocritical it's the fact that we so often hear many experienced artists telling newbs that the first thing they should do to get a foot in the door is to "move where the work is". Now that some of the experienced people may also have to move again some (not all - I try hard not to generalize) are suddenly finding ways to not take their own advice.

My personal feelings on this are mixed. I am against subsidies of any kind, but not because I want to "save" an industry. I certainly don't want people to go out of work, but at the same time I am completely against public funds being used to create the kind of artificial market situations these often tend to create. This may be an unpopular view with many, but I feel that if you can't compete at your cost in your location using your people, then one or more of those aspects needs to change or you need to stop doing what you'r doing all together. Subsidies should not be the answer to that. States often claim that revenue generated by films being shot in their towns is significant and well worth the tax incentive. I live in just such a city where this has happened and I can tell you that we were broke before the movies shot here and we are now in slightly MORE debt because of the films. So like I said, subsidies are just a race to the bottom for everyone imo.

Oh, and also, the phrase "right to ruthlessly chase profits" comes off as a very unnecessary pot shot to be honest. Leigh, I have seen you many times chastise others for that exact kind of generalization.

Last edited by Crotalis : 12-18-2012 at 03:44 PM.
 
Old 12-18-2012, 01:42 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taffy77
I guess the fact that most profit from films comes from the foriegn market is interesting. So we are in fact funding the productions. Currently international box office accounts for nearly 70 percent of income, they are projecting this to rise to 80 percent in the coming years as the Asia markets continue to grow at an astonishing rate.

Can you confirm that a small amount of funding comes from foriergn sources??As these days the finacial industry is a global market and is not most of US finances borrowed money form other countries Here is great link on how they have previuosly financed a film without using there money.

http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/...lockbuster.html

Remember Sony is a non american company, others have european branches. Warner brothers actually owns and runs a film studio in london. I think it was Avatar that 60 percent of the finances came from outside sources many non american. I digress, like i said i think there is a bigger issue and going after subsides is just going to cut vfx productions as they do not have the money in the short to medium term.

I agree things need to be sorted but I think little will change in the US until you restructure your industry and expectations. Along with that I think the major vfx facilities need to come together and stop beating each other down.



Actually Sony Pictures is a USA corporation and housed in Culver City California. As a mater of fact we are grateful that the Japanese purchased the American Studio for not only have they produced some great films but they have completely rebuilt Culver City, new fire and police stations new schools and shopping districts. Japan currently is not a place that is subsidizing VFX shops but rather it's new subsidy program(see Variety article Sept 2012) adheres to the WTO agreement.

As for Foreign ticket sales I'm looking forward to India and China's growing contribution. Did you know that their middle classes are far larger than the entire population of all of Europe and North America combined. I am even more interested in their planned CONTRIBUTIONS to the film market. A market that should be free.

As for the majority of financing coming from USA based projects coming for USA productions that's been well establish but is shifting to global sources as has most of industry, even non resident tax dollars from Canada, although tiny compared to the government backed jobs the've transplanted.

Still none of this is any reason to be breaking the world trade agreement designed to keep these markets free and the reason your country, mine, and the rest all signed on. Canada had not problem petitioning to end the logging subsidies that was killing the jobs of Canadians and not one Canadian thought it was a bad idea. It is these laws we are questioning and it is these laws that all are becoming well aware of. That is why you are taking the time to create your posts and the community is reacting and complaining because they see these questions as valid. If they did not there would be no issue. If they did not they would be no effort to take the fund raising campaign down as it would be deemed as pointless and no "threat"

We don't see it as a threat at all. We have a far more important plan than simply trying to "steal our jobs back" like your countrymen well understood in the logging trade, and that is to create a free market, one that always shows the best growth for EVERYONE.

Please comment on that rather than splitting hairs.
 
Old 12-18-2012, 02:42 PM   #54
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First Dave I am not a Canadian, I chose to work here.

But every post I agree something needs to be done I just dont think going after subsidies in the first instance is going to solve the problem but create a bigger one.

Perhaps you should start completly financing your films without any help from the rest of the world as I have shown your studios heavily rely on to make a films. Imagine if that happens then only a fraction of the films will get made which is bad for all. We have already seen a steady decline in the number of films made this year by most studios.

I agree things need addressing I just think what you guys are doing is a very short term solution. All that will require is a few countries to start saying well fine if we are not going to benefit we will close every avenue to finance your films.

But hey I will sit hear and watch and in a few years time one one somewhere will be able to say I told you so no matter which side that is.
 
Old 12-18-2012, 03:00 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taffy77
First Dave I am not a Canadian, I chose to work here.

But every post I agree something needs to be done I just dont think going after subsidies in the first instance is going to solve the problem but create a bigger one.

Perhaps you should start completly financing your films without any help from the rest of the world as I have shown your studios heavily rely on to make a films. Imagine if that happens then only a fraction of the films will get made which is bad for all. We have already seen a steady decline in the number of films made this year by most studios.

I agree things need addressing I just think what you guys are doing is a very short term solution. All that will require is a few countries to start saying well fine if we are not going to benefit we will close every avenue to finance your films.

But hey I will sit hear and watch and in a few years time one one somewhere will be able to say I told you so no matter which side that is.
.

You so are anonymous so I actually have no idea who you are or if you even work in the industry. Please answer these two questions as I 've answered each of yours.

Free market funding has always shown, and by far, the best growth rates, just look to Russia and China for backup there. Market Socialism is not free trade.

1. What points contained in the signed WTO agreements do you disagree with?

2. List for me the industries of your country, and consider stating where that is, that should be up for transplantation to any other country using their government's money and the exportation of the jobs through this market socialism.
 
Old 12-18-2012, 04:14 PM   #56
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You really haven't answered any of my questions really. And you dont need too, they are just to show why people get upset when they hear people talk of the american industry.

Why not first protect jobs by expelling non Americans? Its harsh but

What make a film an American production ??
1. Financed by America
2. Directed by an American
3. Written by an American
4. Produced by an American
5. Based on American material .
6. Purely housed by a studio who's head office is in LA??

My point is that the golden days of american cinema are gone and it is now a global enity with global multi national companies financed globally. Sony, Fox both bought by foriegn companies and bank rolled that way.

Wheather I agree with various WTO agreements or not my point is the action being taken has completly divided the VFX industy into an us and them situation and as soon as this one small peice of the pie is sorted it will open up the much wider issues.

But now that has happened and with the continuing mentality it will divide us further and create more harm. From what I can tell from conversations I have had this short term solution may harm you more as it could end up forcing every entry /mid level job and more offshore to asia,eastern euroupe where they have now proved they can do the work and more for a fraction of the cost with no subsidy. This is beiing pushed at studio level to lower the costs as they still think vfx is to expensive. Heck even alot of the Vancouver facilities are now off shoreing all of the front end from matchmove, roto, models, textures and soon animation for some companies. On top of that i know of facilities already training depts like comp and character animation in India that will soon see those jobs lost.

In summary I have not really answered your questions because whether I agree or not I see a sickness and this has only divided the community so we are now all just going to look after ourselves and in the end the studios will now win as we as a VFX community will not stand united to help forge a better future. I always love to see the efforts of people I just think ther might have been a better way to get everyone fighting for that future.
 
Old 12-18-2012, 04:41 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taffy77
You really haven't answered any of my questions really. And you dont need too, they are just to show why people get upset when they hear people talk of the american industry.

Why not first protect jobs by expelling non Americans? Its harsh but

What make a film an American production ??
1. Financed by America
2. Directed by an American
3. Written by an American
4. Produced by an American
5. Based on American material .
6. Purely housed by a studio who's head office is in LA??

My point is that the golden days of american cinema are gone and it is now a global enity with global multi national companies financed globally. Sony, Fox both bought by foriegn companies and bank rolled that way.

Wheather I agree with various WTO agreements or not my point is the action being taken has completly divided the VFX industy into an us and them situation and as soon as this one small peice of the pie is sorted it will open up the much wider issues.

But now that has happened and with the continuing mentality it will divide us further and create more harm. From what I can tell from conversations I have had this short term solution may harm you more as it could end up forcing every entry /mid level job and more offshore to asia,eastern euroupe where they have now proved they can do the work and more for a fraction of the cost with no subsidy. This is beiing pushed at studio level to lower the costs as they still think vfx is to expensive. Heck even alot of the Vancouver facilities are now off shoreing all of the front end from matchmove, roto, models, textures and soon animation for some companies. On top of that i know of facilities already training depts like comp and character animation in India that will soon see those jobs lost.

In summary I have not really answered your questions because whether I agree or not I see a sickness and this has only divided the community so we are now all just going to look after ourselves and in the end the studios will now win as we as a VFX community will not stand united to help forge a better future. I always love to see the efforts of people I just think ther might have been a better way to get everyone fighting for that future.


Those are hard questions to answer honestly as the honest answers would completely deflate your argument. Of course you'd be upset if your shop closed because it could not compete with another counties sudden lowering of it's "incentives" Sure you'd be pissed if your family had to move because a Vancouver politician changed his mind on the whole subsidy rate and decided to lower it, and another raised theirs. Just ask the families in Michigan or New Mexico their opinions. If you live by the subsidy you will die by the subsidy.

I expected a deflectionary response to my two simple questions, but it's not really a proper debate tactic.

I do agree that pitting us against each other is harmful and that is exactly what these subsidies have accomplished by adding to the fear campaign to control us and our jobs...and the reason why those who speak out with their real names are a rare breed in our business....and before you leap to the statement that VFX Soldier is anonymous I'd offer the necessity of that as their cause requires it as there are many forces, the same involved with the perpetuation of subsidies that would have the site taken down just like our campaign to end subsidies has been down mysteriously now for 60 hrs... strange how the avid reader of facts on these pages missed that one. It will be up soon and what did not kill us will only make us stronger as it's now validated the attention we seek.

We should not expel all non Americans, the Statue of Liberty covers that perfectly.

If you truly believe the film community is international then you should have no problem losing the subsidies and entering a free market solely based on your talent and branding.

Since you can't answer the basic questions without deflection or deflating answers I believe our debate here needs to end. I encourage you to read more on these topics. My first post gives plenty of resources.
 
Old 12-19-2012, 02:00 AM   #58
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Quote:
"As such, subsidies are NOT in fact true capitalism. It is an artificial manipulation of the market and yes it happens in many industries in the U.S.........I am against subsidies of any kind, but not because I want to "save" an industry. I certainly don't want people to go out of work, but at the same time I am completely against public funds being used to create the kind of artificial market situations these often tend to create. This may be an unpopular view with many, but I feel that if you can't compete at your cost in your location using your people, then one or more of those aspects needs to change or you need to stop doing what you'r doing all together.
"


Quoted for Agreement!
historical evidence suggests Direct subsidies to private non vital industries from public treasuries, tend to allocate resources( capital& labor) to areas where they would not normally migrate if left to the normal Supply& Demand of the Capital markets.

Many of them Devolve into political vote buying schemes,wrong headed "social engineering" schemes
and most damagingly create market "bubbles"
that when they collapse, leave many hapless beneficiaries( employees) out of jobs that probably should have never existed in the first place.



Cheers
 
Old 12-19-2012, 02:47 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THX1311
Many of them Devolve into political vote buying schemes,wrong headed "social engineering" schemes
and most damagingly create market "bubbles"
that when they collapse, leave many hapless beneficiaries( employees) out of jobs that probably should have never existed in the first place.


Not to mention the taxpayers money that went into those subsidies.

Port Grace...
 
Old 12-19-2012, 07:12 AM   #60
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Just curious how these will be affected if the other subsidies are in breach? Not trying to start anything but I was curious on all the types of subsidies also offered in the US and assume some of these are in breech?

http://www.ncsl.org/issues-research...d-programs.aspx
 
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