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Old 12-09-2012, 05:19 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tswalk
out of curiosity Leigh, what are your views on having a forum that provides free advice?

its' a type of reverse parallel wouldn't you say.. taking a paying opportunity away from someone and providing it for free... devaluing that profession (weither it be critiques, educational or technical).

i'll use this as an example: http://forums.cgsociety.org/forumdisplay.php?f=23

but honestly, there's thousands of similar forums all over that do the same type of "free" advice or service.

if i were to hold a similar outrage as you have expressed, i should absolutely appauled with myself contributing there.


Wow, really? You're really going this this absurd length in your attempt to prove your point? Why can't you just accept that many people here don't share your views about the "wonderful opportunity" being offered by this game developer?

I should really just ignore this post for being a tad silly, but hey, I'll humour you.

For a start, you're conflating issues. I never said anything about this "job" taking away work from someone who could be making money with it. I said that everyone deserves a fair wage when working for a studio. Having said that, I fail to see how you can draw a parallel between an online forum where people fire quick questions at others, and people who make a living selling information. I'd liken a web forum to a technical support line, a service generally offered free of charge to customers of a product. In this case, however, there's no product. It's a discipline that has no overall ownership, and thus, there are no technical support lines out there where hundreds of CG artists are employed in call centres to answer people's queries.

As someone who earns money on the side both teaching and writing (magazines, books) about CG, I can tell you firsthand that a web forum like this is not a competitor to those activities. This is simply because there's nobody around who'd be able to teach or write about a subject that encompasses the entire gamut of what's covered in the millions of threads on this site, whether it's technical queries or critiques.

Lastly, how you can compare web forums where communities help one another to developers who are using free labour for a product they're going to sell for their own profit and gain is beyond me. BrainFreeze already covered the finer points of this above, but essentially your comparison is rather akin to accusing subsistence farmers in a commune of taking business away from a supermarket. Or asking your friends for computer advice instead of the salesmen at a computer store.
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Old 12-09-2012, 05:27 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thatoneguy
Ha, the chances that you would happily go to a company like Chase bank, fix their computer, install a new server and setup exchange for them and then "hope" that they pay you if they are happy is about 0%. I'm sure you would be outraged if IT was asked to work for free. Why do you think artists should?


Exactly. Creative industries are constantly considered fair game for free work, usually by people who'd never dream of working for free themselves.

Imagine if I had a leaking pipe in my home and I called up every single plumber in town and asked them if they'd all come round and have a go at fixing it, and I'd pay the one who I thought did the best job? Oh, but I'd never do that. Because it would be ridiculous. But for some reason, it's totally okay to treat artists like this.
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Old 12-09-2012, 06:02 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thatoneguy
That's not "protectionism" that's demanding at least enough money to not be one of those little kids in the charity commercials with a gaunt face and tattered clothes.


ok, but you're only calculating tangibles... there are intangibles here at work which are far more difficult to calculate.

in a competition,the company providing the awards has no doubt understood the value of such things... things where advertisement along can not reward.
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Old 12-09-2012, 06:04 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leigh
I'd liken a web forum to a technical support line, a service generally offered free of charge to customers of a product.




have you tried contacting a software, or system manufacturer after your 90 day warranty for support lately?

get ready to pony up a good 250$ for an answer.
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Old 12-09-2012, 07:31 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tswalk
ok, but you're only calculating tangibles... there are intangibles here at work which are far more difficult to calculate.


The intangibles would be that you might get a real job later. But wait... in this brave new world where you don't pay people there is no longer a job to get.

Also I'm a professional product support consultant in addition to an artist. I provide all of the official tech support for a product. I also provide professional training as well as have provided articles for magazines and publications. Forums in no way what so ever interfere with that job.

Forums are for small, specific problems. And it's a karma system. You put in some free work on the assumption that when you have a small specific problem someone can help you like you help others. So it's a work *exchange* I'm paid for my contributions to a forum by receiving assistance from others when I need it. Real technical support is for when that first line of turning to the-proverbial-guy-next-to-you has failed and you need assistance with something that needs some deep time-consuming investigation, such as reproducing a bug. Someone on the forum can't pass along bugs to the developers. Someone on the forum can't guarantee that if they don't know the answer, they'll find someone who does. The value of a forum is huge but it's not guaranteed support or maintenance.
 
Old 12-09-2012, 10:12 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thatoneguy
.....Forums are for small, specific problems. And it's a karma system. You put in some free work on the assumption that when you have a small specific problem someone can help you like you help others.....


That's right. All forums advice given freely by members is generally given with best of intentions. Many times it will be spot on, sometimes not. That's the nature of it, take it or leave it.
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Old 12-09-2012, 01:56 PM   #52
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Just a quick side note.

People buy and sell items on the Unity Asset store. They have been doing this for a while and they will continue to do so with or without inXile.
The crowd funded makers of Wasteland have been buying a lot of assets from the store to use in the game.
By providing concept art and a chance of promotion in the game and in the store they are adding to, instead of taking away from the artist making the assets whether they are chosen or not.
Why does no one do the math? You sell 10 pieces you can take your partner on a nice dinner (or pay part of the rent ) you sell 100 pieces you have a normal salary for a month! A market is an honest thing. Far more honest than an industry, a market does not care how you look, how old you are, how much money you have, who you know. A market place cares only about the quality of the product. Make a good product and you make a good living. Artist have been doing that before Wasteland came along.

The team at Unity are genuinely happy to put an artist friendly game engine into the hands of creative individuals and they do so for free. I use it and its a very nice product. Apparently fans want to see Wastelands 2 produced and it is getting done. To suggest that the motives of these two businesses are exploitative is to do them a great disservice I believe.

Having said that there are enough baddies out there that want to suck kiddies dry, just not these guys.
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Old 12-09-2012, 09:21 PM   #53
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I agree that in this case it's not a contest, it's just a call for generic stock models. Which I applaud. They're just saying "If there was more of this kind of content in the stock model marketplace we would buy it."

I disagree however with this statement:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanga
The team at Unity are genuinely happy to put an artist friendly game engine into the hands of creative individuals and they do so for free.


Without real-time shadows, level of detail, light baking, a $100k gross revenue cap and numerous other limitations that are pretty significant the free version of Unity is essentially a non-commercial trial. Which is fine, but not entirely altruistic.

Last edited by thatoneguy : 12-09-2012 at 09:25 PM.
 
Old 12-09-2012, 09:44 PM   #54
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There is not a huge difference between the pro and free versions. If you want realtime shads for nothing use UDK. There is an enormous amount you can do with the free version of unity and the pro version is not expensive

Edit: the visual quality of UDK is stunning, there are a lot of instruction videos and using it is pretty nice as well. Only the license is a bit different
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Last edited by Kanga : 12-09-2012 at 10:05 PM.
 
Old 12-09-2012, 10:53 PM   #55
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I guess my question is, are they paying competitively to those people who's models/whatever are selected? If not, then i'd say forget it, let them hire people to do the jobs properly, lazy business practice in my opinion.
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Old 12-10-2012, 05:01 PM   #56
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To excuse this exploitation by saying that it's happening more and more in business is why it's happening more and more. Take my office for example, hardly anyone takes a break, they work late, they complain on the odd breaks they do take.. basically they accept things the way they are, as long as they do that the boss will squeeze as much as he can until they break or quit. I take breaks most of the time, I try also to leave on time, working (unpaid) overtime if it's really necessary. I told the boss of my feelings and that I would rather spend the evenings with my 4 month old daughter and partner, the conditions of the industry are the fault of all those who haven't the balls to say they will not accept it.. exception being students or people trying to break into the industry, it's for the more experienced artists to speak up for you
 
Old 12-10-2012, 06:03 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Remi
I guess my question is, are they paying competitively to those people who's models/whatever are selected? If not, then i'd say forget it, let them hire people to do the jobs properly, lazy business practice in my opinion.

You are not sure how the asset store works I guess. Turbosquid is similar. You can buy a very realistic character model rigged in your flavor for between 10 and 1000 bucks. You couldn't make a model for 1000 dollars at that level of detail but I have had to animate one for a client because to make a one off at that price is not viable.

The artist charges a lower price and sells more which can make the whole thing quite attractive. Its logical if you think about it

If the studio providing the concept art wanted very customized assets and disallowed the sale of those assets while mentioning the price would be on par with other products available in the asset store then they would be taking advantage of people. If they demanded products without providing art they would be lazy and exploitative. But they aint, so it isn't, and they aren't.
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Old 12-10-2012, 06:43 PM   #58
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Quote:
Why does no one do the math? You sell 10 pieces you can take your partner on a nice dinner (or pay part of the rent ) you sell 100 pieces you have a normal salary for a month! A market is an honest thing.


In a real market sellers try to cover their arses all the time working with profit margins and all kind of insurances. In these schemes artists are paid barely enough to make a living, let alone paying for freelance social security and retirement, at least in this part of the world. Besides I wonder how payments will go with your local tax system. This is an employer dumping his responsabilities into the crowd. Besides, anyone can take advantage of such an unregulated system, for instance assembled teams in sweatshops you will have a hard time competing with could try to bid under several different pseudonyms.

If you want serious artists to consider this option then give prizes for all shortlisted models, get them to participate in profit margins if their stuff go into the game, do internships, hire the best ones right away, in other words show the money not the peanuts.
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Last edited by Samo : 12-11-2012 at 09:25 AM.
 
Old 12-10-2012, 10:20 PM   #59
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What part of the piece that you quoted from my post did you not understand? I can't put it any simpler sorry.
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Old 12-10-2012, 10:20 PM   #60
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