Work on Wasteland 2...for free?

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Old 12 December 2012   #31
I think this is an incredible idea. I really love the win win. You don't get chosen, you can still sell your gear. Perfect.

To the poster that said whats next crowd sourcing concept art ,... etc. At this moment there is no platform to sell concepts like there is standard assets.

I am really looking forward to seeing how this initiative goes as I reckon this is the future of business.
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Old 12 December 2012   #32
Quote: when the opportunity for many is so great?


Instead of out sourcing in external teams this is just oursourcing into the crowds of wannabes out there, all competing each other to grab the job. While the salary might be right for certaing types, I don't think you can call this a "great oportunity" for your career, unless you smash them on their faces with your absolutely top-notch work, which of course won't make much sense for the expected salary. It is all about valuing your work and your persona.
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Last edited by Samo : 12 December 2012 at 11:27 PM.
 
Old 12 December 2012   #33
This seems a bit dodgy to me. In all the money they got from kickstarter they cant afford to employ and pay some artists properly?

I cant see the people getting much money or kudos from this. Kudos(whatever you call it) wont be worth anything, no one will care or be impressed that they made some assets for some game. And 90% of people will have wasted their time.
 
Old 12 December 2012   #34
Originally Posted by leigh: Kickstarter is something fundamentally different. Everyone contributing to a Kickstarter campaign gets something; it's an investment of sorts. People are not spending their time creating work for Kickstarter campaigns - they're giving a few dollars.


Leigh, I think you know the kicker start campaign i'm talking about, "the storyboards". And people did question exactly what you really got with that campaign.

Now let my be very clear Leigh, personally agree with you about kids being exploited, God do I, to me it's bordering on immorality. From large name companies suckering kids into traveling long distances, or creating their own 'colleges', and Digital Domain was NOT and is NOT alone in doing this. And as I said the reason is about money, but gained through exploitation of the hope and dreams of young (and often talented) people.

Exploitation of the companies name / brand, or the users inexperience, are both used, all to go get what they the company want, trying to have zero outlay, which will always comes at someone else's expense, not theirs. (dd ceo at the time boasted about this, remember?)

And it's why I see this campaign as the same, it's about doing pre-production development for a production (or hope of) with the goal of making and profiting from a film. No funder in the kickstarter will see any rewards from that. None.

It seems to me that wasteland is doing the same, albeit from a 180 degree position. Instead of cash, they using zero cost asset based development (ie kids).


I'll end my comment with this question, assume the company was called - NoName Studios.

If that were the case would we even be having this discussion, would it even be on here? (regardless if they are film studios, kickstarter or game dev based)

(and if your answer to the above is 'no', if they were not a known name, it wouldn't be on here, then unfortunately, I believe you've just seen the future)
 
Old 12 December 2012   #35
Originally Posted by cojam: .....Now let my be very clear Leigh, personally agree with you about kids being exploited, God do I, to me it's bordering on immorality......


I'm keeping an open mind on the Wasteland thing as I'm just not sure if it's good or bad.

But I can tell you the exploitation thing is rampant elsewhere, even to the extent of using kids in schools.
Last year we had an open day and a photographer from each of the local newspapers come down to cover it. Well guess what, last year the editor from one of the papers phoned up the school and said they wouldn't be sending a photographer, and could she get the students take photos and email them into the paper. The headmistress told us about it and she thought it was a great idea and asked for volunteers. I stood up and told her I thought this was doing a photographer out of a job. My Dad works for one of the local papers and I wasn't too pleased at us being asked to do his job for free, an dto do him out of work. The headmistress was gobsmacked, she hadn't even though of that aspect. When she seen that none of the students who liked photography were going to volunteer to take photos (probably because of the very high risk of running into my fists), she rang the paper and told them if they didn't send a photographer down then they would be the only local paper with no coverage of the day.
They did send a photographer. But it was a small victory on what is a very slippery slope that has no end in sight.
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Old 12 December 2012   #36
Originally Posted by leigh: Where did I bash anyone?

And no, kids wouldn't always get exploited if companies quit their ruthless, manipulative and predatory practices.



" there aren't loads of desperate kids willing to bend over backwards and get shafted for "an opportunity" (and I say that with the sneering derision it deserves) to do work for free for someone."

And yes, I agree that it is the fault of bad business that would sacrifice people over profit.
 
Old 12 December 2012   #37
Originally Posted by Samo: Instead of out sourcing in external teams this is just oursourcing into the crowds of wannabes out there, all competing each other to get the job. While the salary might be right for certaing types, I don't think you can call this a "great oportunity" for your career, unless you smash them on their faces with your absolutely top notch work, which of course won't make much sense for the expected salary. It is all about valuing your work and your persona.



great, as in scope... opportunity as in, if the modeler does a good job, and gets the buy-in... they make a little cash, get some recognition, AND the possibility to resell that piece as an asset.

like someone else said.. its' a win-win, and a smart business decision to try this idea out.

right now, we just don't know the outcome of the venture, perhaps it will flop.. perhaps it will be a success.

it does seem pretty clear though, that source-funding and "crowd" based freelancing is growing.

Originally Posted by leigh: And no, this industry isn't like every other in this regard.


i may be naive about film making, but all you gotta do is look at freelance.com to see that office workers are also at risk to being "crowd" sourced.
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Old 12 December 2012   #38
Quote: great, as in scope... opportunity as in, if the modeler does a good job, and gets the buy-in... they make a little cash, get some recognition, AND the possibility to resell that piece as an asset.


I think oportunity is when you have a chance to provide a lasting impression for your work to people who really value it. Is about getting to progress in your career and not being motionless expecting reward from your past models and works. There are thousands of models already out there in the wild, your asset won't make any different unless you model the Eiffel Tower to the last bolt (if it hasn't been already modelled). Opportunity is to be known for your work, not credits in between but the real thing, when people call you because they want you to work for them.
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Last edited by Samo : 12 December 2012 at 11:41 PM.
 
Old 12 December 2012   #39
Originally Posted by fablefox: What I don't know is that will other people able to buy the asset later on for use in their own game? The reason is that its okay to sell models for low price at asset store if many people are buying it, but you cannot sell it at the same price just for only one company (stock model price is different than custom model price).

And if the model is not selected, can you still sell it later on at the asset store? Was it breach of IP look-alike?

I think the problem here is not the free part, but how cheap they can get the model for compared to hiring an artist.

But here is another kicker: how is it different from most modelling competition?

Ah here fablefox hit it right on.

Quote: Whether or not your asset is selected by the Wasteland 2 team, it will be available for purchase in the Unity Asset Store by any other developers using Unity.


So the concepts are free as are the test scenes in the free to download unity version. If a piece is selected the inXile team will pay perhaps 30 to 50 bucks and the asset store takes 30% of that. So if you were not permitted to sell your version because it got chosen you would have to make a winning product in 10 minutes. That isnt the case though. You may sell hundreds of copies. The concept art is pretty main stream if you ask me so the interesting part is that people get to see your work was chosen and you can push it in the store. Fairly simple and quite clean.

Unity has to accept your asset first and they have a toolkit for artists to use when submitting plus everything gets tested for usability.

If you were not able to sell your stuff (like art tests that take a week and have an NDA attached) it would be a downer, but it is just a nice opportunity.

I am as jaded and have been as misused as the next guy but I find these sorts of initiatives exciting and refreshing.
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Old 12 December 2012   #40
Originally Posted by Tamagoo: " there aren't loads of desperate kids willing to bend over backwards and get shafted for "an opportunity" (and I say that with the sneering derision it deserves) to do work for free for someone."

And yes, I agree that it is the fault of bad business that would sacrifice people over profit.


I really don't see how that post you quoted is bashing anyone but the companies who dangle "opportunities" in front of desperate kids so they can shaft them.
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Old 12 December 2012   #41
Originally Posted by leigh: I really don't see how that post you quoted is bashing anyone but the companies who dangle "opportunities" in front of desperate kids so they can shaft them.


are they really targeting kids though? or are you thinking students, perhaps recently graduated or just anyone in general looking for work?

i mean, this is commercial work... unless you have a commercial product license, you're excluded.

you can, however,.. but doubtful since you are at a much higher level of expertise, and demand a certain level of compensation (and rightfully so).
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Old 12 December 2012   #42
By kids I mean recent graduates and young adults looking for their first break. They're the ones most likely to resort to desperate measures, mostly because they lack the life experience to be assertive about their worth. Studios know this and make easy prey of them.
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Old 12 December 2012   #43
out of curiosity Leigh, what are your views on having a forum that provides free advice?

its' a type of reverse parallel wouldn't you say.. taking a paying opportunity away from someone and providing it for free... devaluing that profession (weither it be critiques, educational or technical).

i'll use this as an example: http://forums.cgsociety.org/forumdisplay.php?f=23

but honestly, there's thousands of similar forums all over that do the same type of "free" advice or service.

if i were to hold a similar outrage as you have expressed, i should absolutely appauled with myself contributing there.
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Old 12 December 2012   #44
Ha, the chances that you would happily go to a company like Chase bank, fix their computer, install a new server and setup exchange for them and then "hope" that they pay you if they are happy is about 0%. I'm sure you would be outraged if IT was asked to work for free. Why do you think artists should?

I agree though that this is jussssst across the line far enough into acceptable that I'll give eXile a pass on this one. It's not a competition where 10 people waste their time and 1 person gets paid--it's a case of asking for a boatload of content around a specific theme and having a standing order to buy everything that is professional quality. This is a great idea for big open world games. If I was an env artist I would be all over this. It's essentially the same gig as a stock photographer. You get a spec and most of the money up front for one project, and then you sell the stock photos to Getty to keep pulling in extra cash down the line.

In case Troy, you don't understand why normally competitions are bad, it's not because it's protectionism it's because no matter who wins, everybody loses. Let's go through the numbers together and I think you'll see clearly why. If you know at least 30 people are going to enter and 15 of them are professionals of roughly equal talent then you have a 6% chance of winning.

If the "prize" aka your paycheck is let's say 150% the normal rate then you can assume that a business model in which you enter into every contest will yield about .06*1.5 or 10% of your normal rate. If your normal rate is $50 an hour then you get paid $5 an hour for working in a contest where you're in the top 25% of artists.

$5 * 40 hours a week * 48 weeks = $9,600 a year. Take out 15% for self employment taxes and you're at $8,160 a year. Well below the poverty line. So far below the poverty line that you would probably be homeless and starving by the end of the year.

That's not "protectionism" that's demanding at least enough money to not be one of those little kids in the charity commercials with a gaunt face and tattered clothes.

Last edited by thatoneguy : 12 December 2012 at 04:42 AM.
 
Old 12 December 2012   #45
Originally Posted by tswalk: its' a type of reverse parallel wouldn't you say.. taking a paying opportunity away from someone and providing it for free... devaluing that profession (weither it be critiques, educational or technical).

i'll use this as an example: http://forums.cgsociety.org/forumdisplay.php?f=23

but honestly, there's thousands of similar forums all over that do the same type of "free" advice or service.

if i were to hold a similar outrage as you have expressed, i should absolutely appauled with myself contributing there.

I do not think this is a strong parallel. People on these forums are asking questions for personal use, not commercial purposes. Others are helping because they were probably helped themselves at some point and just want to give back to the community as well as to increase general *public* knowledge base. Furthermore, taking 5 minutes to answer a question cannot be compared to taking days (weeks?) of hard work.
 
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