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Old 12-08-2012, 03:11 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fablefox
But here is another kicker: how is it different from most modelling competition?


Are you serious? People running a competition aren't packaging the results into a product and selling it to make money.
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Old 12-08-2012, 03:34 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leigh
Sigh.

It's this kind of thinking that results in people being exploited. Companies are nothing without their artists, you know.


here i believe you are perhaps eluding, and not assuming i'm ignorant to the fact that people get exploited. that's more or less an assumption.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leigh
...With all due respect, you need to get a clue.


here you again perhaps assume i have no clue what i'm talking about... which is not true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leigh
Excuse me, but where did I make even a single assumption, let alone "a lot of assumptions" about you or your experience? You came along dismissing my post as nothing more than "fear" when the fact is that these practices absolutely devalue our profession.

And no, this industry isn't like every other in this regard. Creative industries are open to exploitation far more than many others, due to the nature of the work; office work, for example, can't simply be crowdsourced in this manner. And, perhaps more crucially, there aren't loads of desperate kids willing to bend over backwards and get shafted for "an opportunity" (and I say that with the sneering derision it deserves) to do work for free for someone.


i'm not dismissing your perspective at all. you have valid points, but are you more concerned with the welfare of newcomers to your industry getting paid a fair wage, or about the possibility of significant change that directly impacts yours?

seems to be the later to me, hence.. fear. i know all about it Leigh... right here, in the middle of it.. with 3 kids, no job and was replaced by "contract cheap labor".. from a 3rd world country.
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Old 12-08-2012, 07:43 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tswalk
here i believe you are perhaps eluding, and not assuming i'm ignorant to the fact that people get exploited. that's more or less an assumption.


I made no assumption there. You made a statement and I called you out on it. Calling this "an opportunity" masks what is, in fact, an exploitative proposition, with a facade of fairness and optimism, when the only thing that artists getting involved will be doing is proving a combination of their desperation and willingness to work for nothing to this game developer. Artists don't "get opportunities" to work with studios, studios get the opportunity to work with artists, because without those artists, they can't get any work done. And they know it. But they flip this around to manipulate people wanting to get a foot in the door.

Quote:
here you again perhaps assume i have no clue what i'm talking about... which is not true.


Dismissing my post as "fear" which "leads to protectionism" and calling this freelancing was clueless. It's crowdsourcing spec work. Let's not dress this up as something it's not. A freelance job involves a contract, a brief, and most importantly, payment. Freelance work is not participating in crowdsourcing in the hopes that you might be the single person who gets paid. Furthermore, protectionism? I fail to see how that's even relevant to this discussion, let alone to what I said.

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i'm not dismissing your perspective at all.


Well, actually you kinda did. but anyway.

Quote:
but are you more concerned with the welfare of newcomers to your industry getting paid a fair wage, or about the possibility of significant change that directly impacts yours?


I care about newcomers being paid appropriately. Every time someone does work for free, they perpetuate the notion amongst unscrupulous companies that newcomers don't need to get paid. So they don't only screw themselves over, they screw over everyone in their position. And when these kids are essentially telling potential employers that their skills aren't worth paying for, then they're setting a precedent which could prevent them from earning a fair wage for a long time.

Studios need to stop this manipulative tactic of persuading artists that it's some kind of honour to be working for them. The first VFX studio I ever worked at did this and because I was young and impressionable and naive, I fell for it. And that's why it pisses me off when I see it still happening to others.

I'm not concerned about impact to myself as I have enough experience to my name to not be desperate enough to resort to working for free (despite being between jobs myself at the moment). I only work in-house for reputable VFX studios who can't engage in this kind of behaviour due to the nature of film work (confidentiality and such would prevent crowdsourcing). Despite being between jobs right now, I can still afford to bide my time and wait for something else to come along. And if nothing does, I have other irons in the fire. I have no reason to "fear" anything, especially not from this particular example in this thread.

Quote:
seems to be the later to me, hence.. fear.


Hmmmm, what was that you were saying about assumptions?

The industry is changing, yes. Right now, it's going through the biggest changes I've seen in all my years working in this field. But if the industry changes in a way that I don't like, I will simply change my line of work. I'm adaptable like that. I love my job and it'd be great to keep doing it, but my life won't come grinding to a halt if I have to change.
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Old 12-08-2012, 07:49 AM   #19
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Wink

Quote:
Originally Posted by leigh
Are you serious? People running a competition aren't packaging the results into a product and selling it to make money.


I'm not talking about all compo. But some does use the final result for "advertising purposes". So why make a competition and not just hire artist to make advertisement?

The reason I mentioned that is because they are not accepting all models. and those that selected, will be "bought" instead from the Unity store. Hence the comparision. Except in modelling contest there the winning result will be used for "advertising purposes", the payment was in the shape of cash and/or software/product.

That's all.
 
Old 12-08-2012, 07:56 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leigh
Hmmmm, what was that you were saying about assumptions?


Fair enough. I'll concede to making that assumption.
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Old 12-08-2012, 08:01 AM   #21
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after looking through their project and design guide... my only concern would be that the models submitted will be tailored primarily to their style and design... basically making the models unique and limiting re-usability.

in my mind, asking for an average model price (comparable to a generic, reusable model) is a little odd.
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Old 12-08-2012, 09:42 AM   #22
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listing to you two go on, i am surprised that you were not as vocal at the recent Kickstarter campain on here.
Because if one is complaining that 'production' work is by this company essentially being done for free and exploiting kids, which is in the end is all about money. Then so is the kickstarter, which too is about money, albeit through different means, and that given what your both saying here should have paid for through traditional channels, i would take bets that had it been done by "nobrand.com" it would not have succeeded.

Irrespective if you agree or not, and weather you like it or not, this is becoming more prevalent, the writing is clearly on the wall, all you need to do is look & read.

Those two examples are in fact just the tip of the iceberg. Got Liferaft?
 
Old 12-08-2012, 10:34 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leigh
Excuse me, but where did I make even a single assumption, let alone "a lot of assumptions" about you or your experience? You came along dismissing my post as nothing more than "fear" when the fact is that these practices absolutely devalue our profession.

And no, this industry isn't like every other in this regard. Creative industries are open to exploitation far more than many others, due to the nature of the work; office work, for example, can't simply be crowdsourced in this manner. And, perhaps more crucially, there aren't loads of desperate kids willing to bend over backwards and get shafted for "an opportunity" (and I say that with the sneering derision it deserves) to do work for free for someone.


We all understand that, and we do know it devalues the industry. But the fact is that more and more new people are getting into this field with "desperate kids willing to bend over backwards and get shafted for 'an opportunity'" is the only thing that they have left. Kids will always get exploited due to the lack of experience. Don't bash someone when you yourself said of having similar experience. Only now there is more competition and people to go around.
 
Old 12-08-2012, 11:23 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leigh
......I care about newcomers being paid appropriately. Every time someone does work for free, they perpetuate the notion amongst unscrupulous companies that newcomers don't need to get paid. So they don't only screw themselves over, they screw over everyone in their position. And when these kids are essentially telling potential employers that their skills aren't worth paying for, then they're setting a precedent which could prevent them from earning a fair wage for a long time. .....


Good observations. I think it has to be also said that the precedent mentioned eventually has to have a knock-on effect on pay for all artists, not just newcomers.
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Old 12-08-2012, 11:28 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fablefox
The reason I mentioned that is because they are not accepting all models.....


Of course not. Common sense suggests they will accept only the very best ones.
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Old 12-08-2012, 11:52 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamagoo
Don't bash someone when you yourself said of having similar experience.


Where did I bash anyone?

And no, kids wouldn't always get exploited if companies quit their ruthless, manipulative and predatory practices.
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Old 12-08-2012, 11:53 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cojam
listing to you two go on, i am surprised that you were not as vocal at the recent Kickstarter campain on here.
Because if one is complaining that 'production' work is by this company essentially being done for free and exploiting kids, which is in the end is all about money. Then so is the kickstarter, which too is about money, albeit through different means, and that given what your both saying here should have paid for through traditional channels, i would take bets that had it been done by "nobrand.com" it would not have succeeded.

Irrespective if you agree or not, and weather you like it or not, this is becoming more prevalent, the writing is clearly on the wall, all you need to do is look & read.

Those two examples are in fact just the tip of the iceberg. Got Liferaft?


Kickstarter is something fundamentally different. Everyone contributing to a Kickstarter campaign gets something; it's an investment of sorts. People are not spending their time creating work for Kickstarter campaigns - they're giving a few dollars.
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Old 12-08-2012, 11:59 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cojam
listing to you two go on, i am surprised that you were not as vocal at the recent Kickstarter campain on here.


That is essentially fund sourcing. It is an attempt to get investment. There are no 'opportunities to have your work seen by many' carrots dangled in front of you. One simply parts with cash rather than a few days of hard graft.

I have 'donated' a few hundred to various Kickstart's with no illusion that I may be furthering any art career.


On a side note....

My work is construction ( art is a hobby ) and a very large UK national company have 'moved in' to my work area. They give out lots of work but pay peanuts. Work is plentiful and you get to put a sticker on your van saying you work as a 'partner' with this company ( whoop woo ). Guys new to the game flock to it in droves just to get their foot in the door. Worryingly though, more established companies are reluctantly joining too because work is now so thin on the ground - this major company have it sewn up. Skilled tradesmen are getting paid a lot less but the end user customers are still being charged the same. Guess who is pocketing the difference?
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Old 12-08-2012, 03:47 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leigh
Fear? What fear? Are you denying that loads of newcomers get exploited in this industry? If you are, then you're sorely mistaken. Having worked for exploitative studios myself, and know many others who have too, I can assure you that kids clamouring to "have the great opportunity" to work for someone for free or for shit wages is harmful to the entire industry.

And this isn't freelancing. This is crowdsourcing spec work. With all due respect, you need to get a clue.


I think in this particular case it's not as bad as you think Leigh. As I mentioned, you're submitting your work to the asset store. There are already artists (or even studio) that sell their stuff in asset stores. You'll have the entire Unity user base as your potential buyer. Many are not professional, as long as the models are nice, they'll buy it regardless of style. So that's the catch - your model is not a 1-time sell. It can keep on selling, over and over, generating income for you for a long time.

And by the way, asset store let you set your own price for everything you submit. So when the studio mentioned setting a fair price, it only make sense in this particular situation.

You'll have to think of the asset store like Turbosquid. Having a badge that it's used in game can actually have a lot of benefits in that community.

Right. That probably is the point. This whole thing was announced specifically for the Unity community. If you look at it from that community's point of view, everything makes sense.

Last edited by Panupat : 12-08-2012 at 03:53 PM.
 
Old 12-08-2012, 04:59 PM   #30
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My own thought on this.

First off I am only a budding 3D'er, that means I have a whole lot of want to do it but my cant is more. With that said I offer this POV. I wouldn't be as concerned with abuse or exploitation of your talents as I would be worried about not being employed. See there are thousands of people out there like me. The pay is irrelevant, the challenge will drive me to accomplish it. I have a full time , non-artistic, job that takes care of the bills and all my other needs. I do this as a hobby. If I was good at this then I would be putting one of you out of work because I don't care about the pay this is my hobby, I do it because I enjoy it, that's my reward. I believe that is what the hope to use with this opportunity, the more people, like me, that so this for them is less they pay someone who needs to be paid for their time and talents. I am not saying it is right but it is what is real, like it or not. Now not a single one of you have to worry about me swooping in and stealing work from you but I wanted to just offer you this POV.
 
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