Is a REYES render faster than a RAY TRACER render?

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Old 10 October 2012   #1
Is a REYES render faster than a RAY TRACER render?

Hi

1-I have never try a REYES render like Pixar RenderMan, but since it`s a diferente tech for render for what i read (although it does also do ray tracing), i was wondering if it is faster to render with a REYES render like Pixar Renderman Studio for Maya than a ray tracer like Vray, mental ray, etc?...

Faster for render character animation, interior scenes, sss, displacement, hair, MB, DOF, etc.?

2-Also, is a renderman render mostly for programers.., it seems that is very technical oriented?

This is not an app vs app thread, i just want to learn more about the diferent render technologies.

Thanks in advances for your help
Best Regards
 
Old 10 October 2012   #2
I've never tried Renderman either, but as far as I know, it is very fast for rendering anything that isn't raytraced.

Particularly motionblur, DOF, fur, particles and similar effects are quickly rendered in high quality, if I am not mistaken.

Renderman Server is, as you say, most suited to "coders/mathematicians".

However, there is Renderman for Maya, which is a GUI driven "little brother" of the Renderman Server:

http://renderman.pixar.com/products/tools/rfm.html

I want to try Renderman myself some day. I hope that helps.
 
Old 10 October 2012   #3
Hi Yolao !

I strongly recommend to read this article to get deep and accurate info on the subject of Raytracer/Reyes

http://www.fxguide.com/featured/the-art-of-rendering/

Cheers

E
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Old 10 October 2012   #4
I think it's like a racing car, which needs a very special treatment. For one man, it's a wrong choice. It's for a big production and teams of dedicated specialists just in rendering. And why would you want it to be fast without raytracing, if you can use any other renderer, which is also very fast without it? It's a very old engine, and is built for very complex, big scenes you'd probably never encounter in your daily work. It's a factory, whereas you need just a tool.
Most probably, it will be slower in many instances. Raytracing is the standard today for rendering, and you can use many hacks in renderers like mental ray or vray to speed-up your renderings, and you will have to cut raytracing to do that. So what's the point of using REYES for a small team? It's for companies, which have hundreds of specialists with budgets over millions... don't confuse the scope. They use it because their pipelines are built around it for decades. Of course they are efficient, but you won't be as efficient as them, and it will take a lot of time. They prepare the pipeline for months just for rendering for a project, and you need to render those watches or archviz till tomorrow morning.
Mental ray is good for speeding-up the rendering, but vray is faster in some key aspects. I'd never go with Renderman for anything, unless you really know what you're doing.
 
Old 10 October 2012   #5
Originally Posted by SebKaine: Hi Yolao !

I strongly recommend to read this article to get deep and accurate info on the subject of Raytracer/Reyes

http://www.fxguide.com/featured/the-art-of-rendering/

Cheers

E


Agreed. An excellent article that.
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Old 10 October 2012   #6
thanks guys, very nice info. I may try renderman in the future but a pure ray tracer may be the way for me to render.

Cheers
 
Old 10 October 2012   #7
Hey guys,

Don't forget about 3Delight! You can get a free 2 core licence to play around with.

http://www.3delight.com/en/index.php?page=3DFM_download

I've never done anything useful with it, but Its great if you want to learn some super basic shader writing, and learn how the settings on a Renderman spec renderer works.

-AJ
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Old 10 October 2012   #8
Originally Posted by mister3d: I think it's like a racing car, which needs a very special treatment. For one man, it's a wrong choice. It's for a big production and teams of dedicated specialists just in rendering. And why would you want it to be fast without raytracing, if you can use any other renderer, which is also very fast without it? It's a very old engine, and is built for very complex, big scenes you'd probably never encounter in your daily work. It's a factory, whereas you need just a tool.
Most probably, it will be slower in many instances. Raytracing is the standard today for rendering, and you can use many hacks in renderers like mental ray or vray to speed-up your renderings, and you will have to cut raytracing to do that. So what's the point of using REYES for a small team? It's for companies, which have hundreds of specialists with budgets over millions... don't confuse the scope. They use it because their pipelines are built around it for decades. Of course they are efficient, but you won't be as efficient as them, and it will take a lot of time. They prepare the pipeline for months just for rendering for a project, and you need to render those watches or archviz till tomorrow morning.
Mental ray is good for speeding-up the rendering, but vray is faster in some key aspects. I'd never go with Renderman for anything, unless you really know what you're doing.


I'm a single RMS/ RPS user myself. I've had to learn Linux, bash, some RSL and obviously the reyes mindset, but it's well worth it.
The gap is shrinking between large and small studios for renderman. There are many small companies that use renderman renderers. Like I said, with dedication even a single user can succeed in using it in production.

To me, it used to be that the setup time with RMS/ RPS was large, but bugs and headaches were less than MR or Vray at the time (5 years ago...), so I offset one time consumption with the other.
At the time I was rendering scenes with 300+ million polys (in displacement maps) + sss + raytracing + DOF + MB + volumes, all with a little 5 computer farm at about 6 minutes a frame, no other renderer came close to matching that. To me it's all about reliability with complex scenes, so it was worth it.

The reasoning that a reyes renderer is more technical is somewhat true, but with new releases the ease of use has been improved tremendously in RMS.

Don't be scared to use renderman studio. It's a lot of fun once you get the hang of it.
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Last edited by leif3d : 10 October 2012 at 02:17 AM.
 
Old 10 October 2012   #9
I'm just a single user and finding RMS4 not bad at all after using mr and vray for the last few years. Sure big studios and armies of TDs can extract much more out of it than I ever will but so far I have found it more intuitive than I expected. It's also quite comforting to have a real heavy weight renderer at your fingertips, like having Optimus Prime on call
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Old 10 October 2012   #10
So what do you guys render with it? I'd like to see images and render times (and machine specs).
 
Old 10 October 2012   #11
Originally Posted by yolao: 1-I have never try a REYES render like Pixar RenderMan, but since it`s a diferente tech for render for what i read (although it does also do ray tracing), i was wondering if it is faster to render with a REYES render like Pixar Renderman Studio for Maya than a ray tracer like Vray, mental ray, etc?...

Faster for render character animation, interior scenes, sss, displacement, hair, MB, DOF, etc.?

This is a "how long is a piece of string" question
There are things where a REYES engine is faster, there are thing where a ray tracer is faster, but in my opinion, that's not what makes the difference interesting. In my opinion, the advantage of REYES is that it can do pixel perfect tessellation of displacements and higher order surfaces (subD, NURBS, hair) while at the same time keeping a very low memory footprint. Ray tracing on the other hand has the advantage that it can trace arbitrary rays in arbitrary directions, allowing not only all kinds of global illumination features but also progressive rendering (there is no progressive REYES).
Quote: 2-Also, is a renderman render mostly for programers.., it seems that is very technical oriented?

There are two things you must not confuse. REYES is an algorithm for implementing a renderer core, RenderMan is an interface specification for a render engine (as well as the name of Pixar's implementation of that interface). However, there are render engines that use the RenderMan interface but not the REYES algorithm (for example Air, BMRT) or render engines that use REYES but not the RenderMan interface (Mantra, FireFly). So if you want to try out REYES, you are absolutely not restricted to RenderMan but there are options at are more artist friendly.
 
Old 10 October 2012   #12
Originally Posted by stew: This is a "how long is a piece of string" question
There are things where a REYES engine is faster, there are thing where a ray tracer is faster, but in my opinion, that's not what makes the difference interesting. In my opinion, the advantage of REYES is that it can do pixel perfect tessellation of displacements and higher order surfaces (subD, NURBS, hair) while at the same time keeping a very low memory footprint. Ray tracing on the other hand has the advantage that it can trace arbitrary rays in arbitrary directions, allowing not only all kinds of global illumination features but also progressive rendering (there is no no progresive REYES)



Hmmm - could you please cite where you got 'no progressive' from? I know that 3delight has progressive rendering (its a render setting - ive used it) as well as another reyes, non-rman compliant renderer that i cant talk about has progressive as well. It even has a training video dedicated to this feature thats why i remember it so clearly.

Last edited by bergj : 10 October 2012 at 01:09 PM.
 
Old 10 October 2012   #13
Originally Posted by bergj: Hmmm - could you please cite where you got 'no progressive' from? I know that 3delight has progressive rendering (its a render setting - ive used it)


I've used it too...but I believe it's only available when using the ray tracing hider i.e. primary visibility is ray traced.
 
Old 10 October 2012   #14
Many thanks again guys. I will try one of this renders that use the REYES engine, i would have love to use renderman for maya but the demo with watermark has been discontinued and they apparently give it now just for studios.
I will try 3dlight although speaking of speed i would have like to test it with all the cores and not just two that the free version has.

Will donwload the demo of houdini to try out mantras as well.
 
Old 10 October 2012   #15
Originally Posted by CiaranM: I've used it too...but I believe it's only available when using the ray tracing hider i.e. primary visibility is ray traced.


That sounds correct for 3delight. However, you can achieve progressive rendering without raytracing anything - you will need to code it differently, perhaps with a dso. Sorry but I cant go into more specifics. The renderer I'm vaguely referring to is not Relight (which is reyes), but one that I have some affilliation and is being developed. It has the same functionality as this example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_pQ...e=results_video

Last edited by bergj : 10 October 2012 at 03:28 PM.
 
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