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Old 10-25-2012, 12:04 AM   #31
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Kickstarter is a bit of an odd place since double fine blew it up with over 4 million for their asking of 400k to make an old school adventure game. Everyone wants to cash in, in some way or another.

In this case, I say, "why not?" For years people are lamenting blur or blizzard make a full cg animated film. Here they are trying their best whatever route they can. I have more faith that they would actually follow through than many other kickstarters and deliver a high quality product - even if this is just the first step. In the end, if it generates jobs for cg artists, concept artists, story artists, etc, because the story reel takes them further and gets the 35 million to create the real film, then everyone on this board wins. Well, not literally, but figuratively.


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Old 10-25-2012, 01:11 AM   #32
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$400,000 for a demo reel is a bit much for a pitch reel.

If Execs haven't seen the potential after 1000s of comic book pages and a killer short animation reel, then I don't think they will with this demo reel.

I think it is fruitless what they are doing going this route. I'm sure Marvel doesn't spend 400,000 on their "motion comics" which is really what this animatic would be is a motion comic.

They said they wanted a Pixar level animatic.
I seriously don't think this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pHvg5uHtF8
should not take 400,000 to make.

In fact I was checking out this Animatic/Trailer that helped get Looper off the ground
http://vimeo.com/51294350#

I think that turns people off, the amount asked for and what they are going to get out of it. It is not impressive at all. Maybe if they asked for 100,000 - 200,000 it would be a little more understandable. This film was asking for 400,000 but they are making a full film with tons of stop mo characters http://www.kickstarter.com/projects...fmans-anomalisa That I can see taking 400,000.

I do think though that people should be able to donate to anything they want. It looks like 100s want to donate to this cause which is great!

I do think projects like these if they get popular on Kickstarter will begin to drown out the rest of the "indie" people and "small projects".

At the end of the day if the awesome looking short film and the comics pages themselves have not sold this film I don't think an animatic will change things.

Last edited by AangtheAvatar : 10-25-2012 at 01:14 AM.
 
Old 10-25-2012, 01:15 AM   #33
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I don't get why people are getting their panties up in a bunch about it.
Everybody is cool with Tippet, Roberts, Gilbert and so on having a go, but when it's an animated movie, God forbid a big name or two could get involved.

I think Miller couldn't have been more clear about it being just the story reels, and having already tried (and he did) to do what he could out of pocket money without success, and hoping that being able to put a story and not eyecandy in front of studios will change their mind.

He's not been obscure or opaque about yield or motives or history, and the people involved have proven time and time again they are strongly driven by passion. Nothing wrong with crowd sourcing something to which contribution is purely opt-in.
You think a full story reel with iterations is too expensive at 400k? You think execs won't go for it because comic pages should have already been enough (seriously?)? Don't pitch in.

It's just small subset of the world of animation being a bunch of cry-babies (the same small subset I rarely hear anything from except whinging) when every other media industry on the planet has long made peace with similar situations and projects.
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Last edited by ThE_JacO : 10-25-2012 at 01:17 AM.
 
Old 10-25-2012, 02:02 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThE_JacO
You think a full story reel with iterations is too expensive at 400k? You think execs won't go for it because comic pages should have already been enough (seriously?)? Don't pitch in.


They don't just have comic pages..did everyone forget this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6T1NF81BIRQ

I've seen full length movies bought and sold with far less polished concept reels than this, or student films, and with no names of any kind behind them.
 
Old 10-25-2012, 02:51 AM   #35
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[IMG]I think Miller couldn't have been more clear about it being just the story reels, and having already tried (and he did) to do what he could out of pocket money without success, and hoping that being able to put a story and not eyecandy in front of studios will change their mind.[/IMG]

This is the part I didn't get. Alot of posts on cartoonbrew and kickstarter says they were not upfront or clear. I personally thought they were crystal clear.

Quote:
You think a full story reel with iterations is too expensive at 400k? You think execs won't go for it because comic pages should have already been enough (seriously?)? Don't pitch in.


Not just the 1000s of comic pages but the names behind it, the good track record, the animated short that shows how it could and should look. That should have been enough. I personally think the reel would simply be fruitless.

Personally I would just do another film and not with a boring ol zombie. Show the world of Goon. Skunk Apes, Killer Robots, Mad Scientists, Aliens. Dude you had me at Skunk Ape. Execs want to see cute cuddly animal movies. Fool them into thinking they are funding that. The world needs Sasquatch, Skunk Ape, and Bigfoot like creatures.

But hopefully they get it and we will see.

Last edited by AangtheAvatar : 10-25-2012 at 02:57 AM.
 
Old 10-25-2012, 05:06 AM   #36
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The people involved aren't stupid or new to the industry.
If they think a story reel might be the push it needs, there might very well have been discussions that aren't public that led to that conclusion.

I have seen first person a lot more than just eyecandy and a popular brand still not being enough to get a project off the ground, and I've also seen things taking off from practically nothing (a short story, a short movie and so on).

At the end of the day, for different projects studios have different concerns, if in this case something led Miller and Fincher to believe that a script development, treatment, and a story reel might be the push the project needs to be greenlit, I trust them not to be complete noobcakes about how things work.

How something could and should have looked is, believe it or not, hardly ever the push that gets something like this greenlit. A solid treatment and public interest go way longer.
It's also a lot easier to produce something like that (trailer) than it is showing you can do a story pass.
Hitting a final multiact animatic/storyreel with blue pencil and on 12s that pleases studios and directors is an order of magnitude harder than producing a one-off 5 minutes of gagful footage of the quality you'd expect from Blur, Digic, or even us (Animal Logic), or even Pixar.

I'm surprised by much of the tone I hear that seems to imply practically everybody at studios or on this project's side must be a candid and naive dreamer or an idiot unaware of how the machine works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hypercube
They don't just have comic pages..did everyone forget this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6T1NF81BIRQ

I think everyone remembers it, my mentioning of comic pages only was in reference to a comment before my post.
A trailer like that is usually the last piece of a large puzzle to get a studio to greenlit a major CGI feature animation, by the way, and by far not the most important.
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Last edited by ThE_JacO : 10-25-2012 at 05:50 AM.
 
Old 10-25-2012, 05:11 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hypercube
Like I said in the other thread, my biggest question is how someone with Fincher's clout couldn't either get the movie made directly, or pony up another 400k for the reel, or find a couple of friends who would? Has he been working for scale all these years?

How much of their own money have they already sunk into the earlier test footage, to the point they are not willing to waste more for something they supposedly believe so strongly in? I know Fincher was previously involved trying to get a new version of Heavy Metal going, maybe he is burned out on trying to back underground animation projects?

Also knowing how a lot of movies get sold or end up in development hell or such, this really seems like a weird last-ditch effort. As others have mentioned, why would a studio that passed on it like a dirty diaper previously, with the strength of that very well-done animation test and an allegedly decent script, suddenly turn around and greenlight it just because they have a complete story reel?


If what you say is true... then he should have just gone to Japan. Japan will greenlight those type of films - especially Heavy Metal.
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Old 10-25-2012, 06:12 AM   #38
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Eh, if people want to spend their money on a story reel/pitch, that's their business.

My only problem with the Goon campaign - Blur made their pitch already, with a kick-ass trailer. And Hollywood collectively said "no, thanks".
The Hollywood suits aren't idiots, unfortunately. They've a short list of expensive mature-audience animated flops that tells them The Goon would be too high a risk. A rabid fanbase means nothing to them if the film can't move some happy-meals.


If Mars needs moms was a go, I really don't see why Goon would be viewed as something risky. It has very good characters that children would love.

I do not see a controversy at all, there's a whole bunch of crap that is being funded on kick-starter, this is not one of them. In fact its beneficial to kick-starter and everyone else.
 
Old 10-25-2012, 07:19 AM   #39
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@ThE_JacO:

I think the main issue is that Blur had assembled some material but it just wasn't getting the greenlight. I was thinking that the purpose of the crowd-funding campaign was not really to pay off for the whole thing.... but rather to use the reception to the crowd-funding campaign to prove to studios that the concept does have "built-in support" and maybe produce a Story Reel that helps address maybe a couple of the questions they got back from people who had seen the earlier pitches.
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Old 10-25-2012, 08:01 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CGIPadawan
If what you say is true... then he should have just gone to Japan. Japan will greenlight those type of films - especially Heavy Metal.

Sure, Japan might greenlight it, but Japanese production budgets are notoriously low. Ghibli films probably command the highest budgets, so let's take a look at Miyazaki's latest, Ponyo, which had a budget of 3.4 billion yen (about $42.5 million USD at today's exchange rates). Compare that with the latest CG film, Sony's Hotel Transylvania, which Box Office Mojo reports a budget of $85 million USD.

If Blur can make a feature length movie with half the typical CG movie budget and maintain 100% Blur quality, then all power to them... But realistically, $42.5 million will put you in the neighborhood of Delgo ($40 million) and Hoodwinked Too!: Hood vs Evil ($30 million).
 
Old 10-25-2012, 08:28 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pomru
Sure, Japan might greenlight it, but Japanese production budgets are notoriously low. Ghibli films probably command the highest budgets, so let's take a look at Miyazaki's latest, Ponyo, which had a budget of 3.4 billion yen (about $42.5 million USD at today's exchange rates). Compare that with the latest CG film, Sony's Hotel Transylvania, which Box Office Mojo reports a budget of $85 million USD.

If Blur can make a feature length movie with half the typical CG movie budget and maintain 100% Blur quality, then all power to them... But realistically, $42.5 million will put you in the neighborhood of Delgo ($40 million) and Hoodwinked Too!: Hood vs Evil ($30 million).


Well that kinda depends right? If the core group is Blur and the "pile-on" group is from China.. it could be an interesting mix. I think if Blur lead the spearhead they can maintain look and feel because all the other groups would just have to "make them as per standard".

But at the same time, yes, it would be a bit out-of-the-ordinary.

We've already seen what something of this nature looks like (see: "Starship Troopers: Invasion").
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Old 10-25-2012, 12:01 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThE_JacO
I think Miller couldn't have been more clear about it being just the story reels, and having already tried (and he did) to do what he could out of pocket money without success, and hoping that being able to put a story and not eyecandy in front of studios will change their mind.

He's not been obscure or opaque about yield or motives or history, and the people involved have proven time and time again they are strongly driven by passion. Nothing wrong with crowd sourcing something to which contribution is purely opt-in.
A million times this.

Once again, all of the criticism I'm reading hinges on one key thing - that those investing do not understand what they are paying for. They are all adamant that the backers of this Kickstarter are being mis-sold when making their investment. I have a problem with this on multiple levels.

It is arrogant to assume that those investing have not understood what they're paying for.

People are focusing on the lack of return for those investing. Each backer level has a reward - irrespective of whether the full feature gets made. If someone looks at the reward coupled with the prospect that it could potentially help the film get made and it is too steep, they are simply not going to invest.

This is directly linked to the biggest problem I have with those criticising the project - they are constantly referring to the lack of financial reward for those investing. "If they couldn't get the money through normal routes, there's no way I'm giving them money...", "What if the film is a hit? Backers should get a percentage!", "Surely David Fincher can just sell one of his solid diamond testicles!?!".

The problem I have with this attitude is that it completely flies in the face of everything that creatives are supposed to hold dear - that an idea is more important than a fiscal return. How many times have people on this forum bemoaned the interference of nameless 'suits', who focus on money and cripple ideas by reducing them to a product?

This is a chance for people who are passionate about helping a commercially difficult project one day see the light of production - not because it will be a sound investment for their future, or because they've crunched the numbers but because they want to see it.
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Old 10-25-2012, 01:48 PM   #43
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I wont go into the story about Goon because like said everyone votes with his own dime and that is perfectly OK, but I noticed some shady business that in my eyes seems like legal robbery. What is happening recently is that you have some projects on Kickstarter that were already funded, backed up from government institutions, and yet they failed to complete, and they are asking for more and more money. Some of those projects were featured on social networks, forums and even on TV like some sort of hero enthusiasm projects, though they are in production for several years. I say fine, they have right to do whatever they wont but why Kickstarter doesn't have some sort of legal mechanisms to check some of those projects.
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Old 10-25-2012, 02:25 PM   #44
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I love that they are putting up a finger to all the studios that turned them down and powering on with this.. but alas they still need those studios otherwise they wouldn't be making a story reel... none of that seems unfair BUT if I was to support them financially, I'd want some return just like any business.. so I take a risk in seeing potential, and put my money on the table, and in return, they honour this with financial gain should it do well at the box office. Sadly as far as I can tell thats not what they are doing.

Not all those who like animated films are artists who just like to see cool shit get made, thats what might make this a hard sell if nothing is given in return which I believe is a big part of Kickstarter.
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Last edited by vfx : 10-25-2012 at 02:31 PM.
 
Old 10-25-2012, 02:39 PM   #45
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Look we all understand it's voluntary, we aren't saying this shouldn't be done or it's immoral, we're just voicing the little things about it that kind of bother us.

So is this what the trend should become? In order for a movie to be made we all need to put money in for a story pitch, then when an incredible animatic is made the studios have an easier, less risky investment to make, so they invest. And then we, the crowd-funders, pay again to see the movie, and the studios make their investment back and more, while we've paid twice to see a film?

You don't see how that is all a kind of weird set up, where we, the consumers, kind of bend over backwards to see a product we want?

Really it comes down to normally when you donate to a kickstarter the minimum reward is often the product you're kickstarting, which makes sense. I want this made, I put money in, it gets made and I recieve the result. Here it's a weird situation where I want something made, I put mony in, it gets made, I now pay again to recieve the result. And if it isn't made, I don't really get anything. (oh I get a behind the scenes look at making the story reel... )

Again, I'm not saying it isn't transparent, and people are allowed to donate, that's fine. I just don't want to really see this become a trend, cause I think it really just puts more burden on us, while lifting a lot from the studios. (and I refer to the studios that would back/distribute/etc. the project, not Blur)

Also want to mention I'm not boiling over this, just kind of discussing it is all. I'm all for a Goon movie to be made, and I'd absolutely love to see Blur get into features, so I wish them the best!
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Last edited by Michael5188 : 10-25-2012 at 02:42 PM.
 
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