Renderer for product viz?

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Old 11 November 2012   #46
Originally Posted by Kzin: a good way to improve the situation is to learn how to use mr correctly. its easier to setup mr then vray if you know what you do. use the latest stuff in mr and not the archaic default settings which ad provides and you will see that the life can be way more easy (see elementalray.com for example for a good starting point).


+1.
I hope Mray dumbs backward compatibility concerns and makes the new features official.
It also needs a fast preview renderer like Modo, maybe something like Spraytrace.
But I doubt they'll develop anything for the cpu now MR is owned by Nvidia.

A fast preview renderer is the most important and timesaving feature for lookdev today.
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Old 11 November 2012   #47
Originally Posted by AJ: I have yet to see a Mental Ray set-up that cannot be improved upon (in terms of speed and quality) using V-Ray - and I would be more than happy to be proved wrong

Fake reflections? How can you render it with Vray? Can you set up any kind of reflection map for the object to reflect? I know how to make in in MR, but I don't know how in Vray. Some production shaders are good in mental ray,
 
Old 11 November 2012   #48
Originally Posted by Kzin: a good way to improve the situation is to learn how to use mr correctly. its easier to setup mr then vray if you know what you do.
I'll definitely concede that my knowledge of Mental Ray and it's finer workings is limited compared to my knowledge of V-Ray and as a result this will certainly bias my opinion - but I have yet to personally witness anything that Mental Ray currently does better/faster. If there's anyone out there that could send me a 3ds Max file with a scene set up in MR that really shows off what it can do I would greatly appreciate it.

Originally Posted by mister3d: Fake reflections? How can you render it with Vray? Can you set up any kind of reflection map for the object to reflect? I know how to make in in MR, but I don't know how in Vray.
You can put any texture you want into the Environment slot, you can also disable raytrace reflections...etc.
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Old 11 November 2012   #49
Originally Posted by AJ: You can put any texture you want into the Environment slot, you can also disable raytrace reflections...etc.

As far as I remember, it won't work with disabled reflections in Vray. I.e. if you put an environment reflection map and then disable trace reflections, it won't work.
 
Old 11 November 2012   #50
Originally Posted by AJ: I'll definitely concede that my knowledge of Mental Ray and it's finer workings is limited compared to my knowledge of V-Ray and as a result this will certainly bias my opinion - but I have yet to personally witness anything that Mental Ray currently does better/faster. If there's anyone out there that could send me a 3ds Max file with a scene set up in MR that really shows off what it can do I would greatly appreciate it.


for 3dsmax, thorstens tools should be a good starting point. he implements all the newer mr goodies.

http://www.infinity-vision.de/blog/...g-at-3dsmax2013
 
Old 11 November 2012   #51
MR community is soo in love with themselves. It's hard to get any response in complex situations. Of course such guys as Jeff Patton are great, but some create a pretty hostile environment for newcomers. You'd be better be a programmer to enter. Oh, you can't white a mr shader? Sorry, bye, hehe.
 
Old 11 November 2012   #52
Originally Posted by mister3d: As far as I remember, it won't work with disabled reflections in Vray. I.e. if you put an environment reflection map and then disable trace reflections, it won't work.
You're absolutely right, my apologies. I haven't had to use a non-raytrace environment in a few years. You could of course use a standard Max material with (or without) a vraywrapper, but you're right V-Ray doesn't seem to do this as standard.

Originally Posted by Kzin: for 3dsmax, thorstens tools should be a good starting point. he implements all the newer mr goodies.

http://www.infinity-vision.de/blog/...g-at-3dsmax2013
I'll definitely take a look but from a cursory glance this looks to be a commercial 3rd party toolset to try and wrangle MR's settings into something more manageable... Is that correct?
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Old 11 November 2012   #53
Originally Posted by mister3d: As far as I remember, it won't work with disabled reflections in Vray. I.e. if you put an environment reflection map and then disable trace reflections, it won't work.
You can leave reflections enabled, but turn on "dim distance" and set the distance to 0.0

Best regards,
Vlado
 
Old 11 November 2012   #54
Originally Posted by mister3d: As far as I remember, it won't work with disabled reflections in Vray. I.e. if you put an environment reflection map and then disable trace reflections, it won't work.


If you only need enviroment reflections you can set the trace depth to 1 and it will just do that.

But ray traced reflections are generally verry fast in vray i rarely set it lower than the default amount of 5.

*edit:
Just tried it, just to be sure... Seems i dont remember well, it still reflects 1 bounce of objects also.

But i see the allmighty Vlado (thev) already has replied with a working solution.

Last edited by CHRiTTeR : 11 November 2012 at 01:10 PM.
 
Old 11 November 2012   #55
Originally Posted by thev: You can leave reflections enabled, but turn on "dim distance" and set the distance to 0.0

Best regards,
Vlado

That's nice to know, thanks a lot! Vray once again proved to be good.

Last edited by mister3d : 11 November 2012 at 01:19 PM.
 
Old 11 November 2012   #56
Originally Posted by AJ: I'll definitely take a look but from a cursory glance this looks to be a commercial 3rd party toolset to try and wrangle MR's settings into something more manageable... Is that correct?


the render optimizer is free as far as i know.

http://www.infinity-vision.de/page/ro_menue
 
Old 11 November 2012   #57
Originally Posted by AJ: I'll definitely concede that my knowledge of Mental Ray and it's finer workings is limited compared to my knowledge of V-Ray and as a result this will certainly bias my opinion - but I have yet to personally witness anything that Mental Ray currently does better/faster. If there's anyone out there that could send me a 3ds Max file with a scene set up in MR that really shows off what it can do I would greatly appreciate it.

You can put any texture you want into the Environment slot, you can also disable raytrace reflections...etc.


I wouldn't say mental ray is in any way better than vray. Actually quite contrary, Vray IS the better engine all around when you take everything into account. The main things that Vray does better is displacements, motion blur, memory management on huge scenes and a little better render pass support. (Albeit Mental Ray develops these a bit more each year)

But when it comes to just rendering still images, especially in smaller scenes. There isn't anything clear cut that vray is going to be able to do, faster, that mental ray can't in still shots. It used to be four years ago you had to know some serious tricks in mental ray to do that, which is where Vray's reputation got such footing. But in the latest Max and Maya, its not really that hard anymore. Just read thorough the mia_x material documentation and the final gather settings, get a thorough understanding of that, and your pretty much good to go.

If you already have vray in your pipeline and use it, going back to mental ray for anything would be ridiculous. But if the question is, do you need to get vray to render a top-tier product still because mental ray can't do it with as much ease? No way.

Last edited by techmage : 11 November 2012 at 04:22 PM.
 
Old 11 November 2012   #58
I also find that vray renders reflections much faster than mental ray, especially blurry reflections.

Also worth mentioning is chaos group's support... its probably the best on the planet!
 
Old 11 November 2012   #59
I have a question to AJ. Because Im really impressed by your renders I would like to ask, what is the best approach to learn rendering like this from scratch. Do you think I could learn Vray and Product rendering within a year or so, with basic knowledge ?

Im working as a 3D artist for games at the moment and I would love to land some jobs in advertising and commercial agencies soon. There are plenty of them in my area.

Im good at modelling and texturing, but have not very much experience with rendering, lightning or shading.

An answer would be great, I really like your stuff and registered yet, just to ask you.
 
Old 11 November 2012   #60
Originally Posted by Playdo: Good tips there Frog.

Yes, I may well give Vray a trial.

Pepster, I see that you work at mbusa. Where does Keyshot fit into your pipeline there? I presume Vray's used for your final images?


Hey Playdo,
We were using Keyshot a lot to do quick "strip in" renderings. Such as updating just some wheels or a new bumper onto existing photos. Yes, we are using Vray for our final full images. When Keyshot comes out with a render layers feature, then maybe it will be possible to use in full production, but for now Vray is still our main tool.
 
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