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  10 October 2012
Originally Posted by Aurel77: who would be interested by a different approach of animation workflow inspired by what you saw in my videos and the Vs hierarchies document ?


I would be interested to see your ideas. I have done some UI & interaction design in the past ( 6 - 7 years ago), so maybe in my free time I can help you a little with your ideas.

Faster animation workflow would benefit everyone, I think.

Who knows, maybe it can open the door to CG feature films being made with a much smaller budget, less people, and much faster production time.

That would help democratize what people can create with CG.

If you post your ideas here, I'll be happy to provide critique, and maybe also some help with the UI design side.

Good luck!
  10 October 2012
Thanks DePaint

Last edited by Aurel77 : 12 December 2012 at 10:09 AM.
  10 October 2012
.... and CG ladies, of course ;-)
  10 October 2012
So to be clear from the video, the big features I saw were-

No more rig ctrls, selecting from the geo or list to the right.

No more keys on the timeline, instead they're listed with frame numbers.

No more manipulators on screen, manipulation is done in a window.

Automatic looping of animation.

New format for copying keys or mirroring animation.

Anything major you want to add? (shown in the video?)

Before I comment on it I want to know what exactly are the big ideas you're proposing.

  10 October 2012

Well, then of course, it's a question of point of view.

Last edited by Aurel77 : 12 December 2012 at 10:09 AM.
  10 October 2012
Again you keep saying what's wrong right now, and saying you have created an innovative new method, but I simply want features listed, not a sales pitch. My post wasn't meant to downplay what you've done, really I'm just looking for facts and make sure I understand everything you're proposing.

For the sake of discussion, I'll just offer my opinion.

First it seems like the biggest improvement your proposing is actually in the rigging field, not specifically in animation. (although of course it effects animation) I agree whole-heartedly, there is a lot most productions require that I don't understand us having to do over and over from scratch. So yes, streamlining a lot of it is very much needed.

As far as the animation process itself, I'm not sure I'm sold. First of all it seems very much geared for loops, which is fine, but rather limiting. (Such as automatically looping from my last key frame.)

I don't see the point in getting rid of manipulators. I'd say they're much more intuitive than a box with colored squares, and beyond that the channel box in maya already gives you the option to manipulate without ever setting your mouse in the viewport, or maneuvering the camera to find the manipulator.

I'd have to work for a few days with keys on the list as opposed to the timeline, but the keys on the timeline is actually (imo) a big feature I feel CG actually has better than hand-drawn animation. I don't know why we need to get rid of it, especially since your method could work perfectly alongside it. In other words, I'd pretty much like to have both options. Mainly cause I feel like your method could get confusing if I don't have everything keyed on the same frame.

But I think the biggest thing that holds me back from getting really excited is you've omitted what should be the biggest feature shown, and that's whatever you're doing to the animation curves. You talk about 8 keys making the loop, but unless I can actually see how you're doing that differently than what current graph editors do, I don't really know why that's special. Cause really with current animation software you should be able to make a run cycle with that few frames.

I love, love, love selecting the geo instead of ctrls. But at the same time I do think ctrls are sometimes needed. There are certain things I need to do with some characters that are too abstract to be constrained to the section of the model. Also controls can make certain things easier to select. For instance face animation. Getting rid of the manipulators was so we wouldn't, as animators, have to move around the camera and look for things, but then getting rid of controls and using geo seems to place that requirement back in. The fingers might be in a hidden, or concealed pose and ctrls would make then easier to select (as opposed to selecting the geo itself) Again, it comes down to I wish we could have both. And this is also ignoring a lot of plug ins that provide clean, and easy ways to select rig ctrls, so this improvement almost feels null.

I'm not saying this doesn't have some impressive ideas, I just think

1- a lot of them would work better alongside what we already have, as opposed to replacing.

And 2- I know you don't want to show too much, but unfortunately I'm not seeing anything here strictly animation wise (ignoring the auto rigging which already exists in many forms, many studios use the same rig they made for all their bipeds without redoing it each time) that would really blow my mind.

I wish you could show more, but for now simply hearing it's more intuitive or generic or easier to use isn't really enough. Anyone can say that, it's tough to judge without seeing everything you're actually proposing.


Last edited by Michael5188 : 10 October 2012 at 02:38 PM.
  10 October 2012
I guess my initial reaction was similar to Michael's, I'm all for people creating new tools to make animation easier (I do so myself too), but I haven't seen anything in the videos you linked to that made me think 'yes I want that'.

For me manipulating a CG character is already an abstraction compared to say drawing in 2D or posing a physical model in Stop-motion animation, so what I like as an animator is the most direct way of grabbing controllers and manipulating them in the viewport. I dislike having to use sliders or any other control surface so the tools for posing you've shown really don't appeal to me to be honest. I'm thinking about say posing an FK arm for example, I'd much rather just select the curves in a typical rig that run around the arm and pose the upper arm, then move down to the elbow etc., rather than having to click on some kind of GUI to rotate the arms.

Not trying to take away from the work/ideas you have, I just thought it worth mentioning that for me it's not really something that I find appealing. Of course others may love it, but I'm just offering some balance of opinion here.

  10 October 2012
Hi everybody,

No problem at all with your opinions and thanks for sharing it.

Last edited by Aurel77 : 12 December 2012 at 10:10 AM.
  10 October 2012
Thanks for your participation


Last edited by Aurel77 : 12 December 2012 at 10:11 AM.
  10 October 2012
I'm all for simplicity,
but it's kinda misleading to compare your outliner to that of a complex rig.
You can get much more basic character rigs if you want to in maya.

Regarding the curve editor... Why limit your audience by excluding one. I hate it, but I'd like it there too for finetuning timing, arcs whatnot.

I am interested in your tool and think that once you are ready to show us the whole banana, this discussion will be more productive for everybody.
"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex & more violent..." Einstein
  10 October 2012
It's also a little misleading IMO to say that a rig takes 2 weeks to build just because a DVD teaching how to rig is 6 hours in length. The 6 hours I'd imagine are the time it takes someone to clearly explain to a beginner how to build that rig. Any rigger worth hiring will script rig creation so it can be done in a fraction of the time during actual production as building rigs manually is extremely inefficient. Sure you will still have to take time on certain stages, like building blend shapes and finessing the skinning but building a basic rig for a biped shouldn't take more than a few hours.


Last edited by Horganovski : 10 October 2012 at 04:19 PM.
  10 October 2012
Well, i don't really agree.

Last edited by Aurel77 : 12 December 2012 at 10:12 AM.
  10 October 2012
I would love to see something like this happen, because the world of 3D character animation really needs an overhaul. IF someone could do for animation what Zbrush did for modeling we would see a revolution.

A funny thing about Poser, since it seems weak as they try to keep up with the times, if you were, TODAY, to go back and animate a Poser 1 or Poser 2 character, it would seem like the fastest and easiest animation system around.
Terrence Walker
Studio ArtFX
Learn How to Make Your Own Animated Projects!
You don't need millions of dollars or major studio backing!!
  10 October 2012
Originally Posted by teruchan: ... IF someone could do for animation what Zbrush did for modeling we would see a revolution...

Yep. this is the tool the whole industry is waiting for to change everything.

This and realtime photorealistic rendering.
"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex & more violent..." Einstein
  10 October 2012
Originally Posted by mustique: Yep. this is the tool the whole industry is waiting for to change everything.

This and realtime photorealistic rendering.

I think we all everywhere, and in all different CG industries, agree with this.
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