Paperman Breakdown...Mod Edit: (Full short now Online)

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Old 10 October 2012   #31
Originally Posted by CGIPadawan:
The Disney method of Paperman.. The principle of it is that you take some aspect of the original footage (Vector, blur, and Diffuse/Color) and then augment it with custom Vector line drawings to produce the final image. They also use auto-morph in-betweening to eliminate any "quiver" or "shake" in the image.


Kind of, but not quite. They had a full 3d tracker that could map drawings in 3d space as you drew them. They could animate the hair and cloth in 2d, but while manipulating the 3d scene and then it would update with the animators 2d feel. The technology is like nothing out there, I don't think you can hack this into a simple solution.
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Old 10 October 2012   #32
Originally Posted by leif3d: Kind of, but not quite. They had a full 3d tracker that could map drawings in 3d space as you drew them. They could animate the hair and cloth in 2d, but while manipulating the 3d scene and then it would update with the animators 2d feel. The technology is like nothing out there, I don't think you can hack this into a simple solution.


Agreed.

One of the key components to this method to work is a classically trained animator.

In the SIGGRAPH 2012 panel the classic animators confessed that this method required a high level of concentration to make it work.

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Old 10 October 2012   #33
Originally Posted by RobertoOrtiz: Agreed.

One of the key components to this method to work is a classically trained animator.

In the SIGGRAPH 2012 panel the classic animators confessed that this method required a high level of concentration to make it work.



So it demands MORE from the animator and not LESS?

I would have thought the concept of the dynamic object-based Vectors was to eliminate the chore of re-work....

I mean.. When I see the method I actually thought: "This will make 2D animators lazier.. and eliminates number of staff used in in-betweening..."
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Old 10 October 2012   #34
Originally Posted by th3ta: Yeah I get those differences, I was just speaking specifically to the automated tracking of strokes. That specific tech seems similar to what Flat Black Films have been doing.


Flat Black's work looks the same as "A Scanner Darkly" and appears to be frame-by-frame changing without morphs and with a lot of "waving" and "melting".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6d8f_Cml1c

The Paperman result is different.. it's ultra-smooth with consistent "non-wavy" shades.
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Old 10 October 2012   #35
Originally Posted by CGIPadawan: So it demands MORE from the animator and not LESS?

I would have thought the concept of the dynamic object-based Vectors was to eliminate the chore of re-work....

I mean.. When I see the method I actually thought: "This will make 2D animators lazier.. and eliminates number of staff used in in-betweening..."

The animators i nthe panel confessed that it required so much concentration she count not even play music while working on the short. I am sure that Disney Research is aware of this, and by the next short they will have improved the tool for the animators.
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Old 10 October 2012   #36
@leif3d: That's exactly what I meant about "active bezier curves" and why that specific (and important) aspect of the technology cannot be replicated. So I don't expect a "hack-job" to match Paperman. Even if it does it will be very difficult to maintain consistency across the board. But the question was "what is the closest you can do to get to it with just what we have off the shelf?"

And that's the closest I can think of.

@Roberto: I still don't understand why it would make it harder for animators to work unless there was some kind of issue with how the "Active Curves" were being translated to 3D space (like the software was doing a couple of things you didn't like and you kept going back to re-work).
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Old 11 November 2012   #37
Paperman soundtrack is now online:

http://musicoverwords.tumblr.com/po...-paperman-score
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Old 11 November 2012   #38
I finally saw this over the weekend at CTNX during the panel about the process and again that night at the Wreck-it Ralph screening hosted by Disney. Really great short and it was nice to see a bit more about how they created it directly from the creators.
 
Old 12 December 2012   #39
The art of Disney Paperman

http://theconceptartblog.com/2012/1...te-de-paperman/
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Old 12 December 2012   #40
Excellent discussion.
I hope this keeps going, I would love to try some Vector rendering with Blender. Padawan, do you have any experience with this?

From the discussion on this thread and reading about how complex Paperman was stylistically... I assume that any amateur attempt do this will result in a crappy roto-look, at best like Scanner Darkly or even AHA's Take on Me video.

To simulate a hand-sketched look, you've got to have variations in line quality and thickness (even texture of the pencil on paper) or else it will look like your average toon shader - but too much variation and you get the wobblyness of Scanner Darkly.

Also, does anyone know what the word "advected" means exactly? I gather that it has to do with the interpolation of perspective changes... just never heard it before watching the Paperman behind the scenes youtube vid...
 
Old 12 December 2012   #41
Looks interesting. I haven't seen Paperman yet. I definitely plan to. Some have suggested that the live-action short SIGNS was the inspiration for Paperman. I'd be interested in comparing the two after I see Paperman.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uy0HNWto0UY
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Old 12 December 2012   #42
More than anything I'm impressed by the design of the marvelous 3D models. They are so charming.
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Old 12 December 2012   #43
I just found this thread now. This is the first I've seen or heard of paper man. This is the most exciting thing I've seen in a very long time. I've never liked simulated hair and clothing in character animation CG movies. What I like about CG character animation is the human decisions expressed in more subtle ways via giving animators more control. Adding computer simulations to human decisions like character animation, has and will always look bad in my opinion. I don't care how good your simulations are they don't fit with character animation only with motion capture. What I find attractive about character animation is the hyper reality, the exaggerations made by a person, simulations are not hyperreality they're calculations from a computer. They should never be put together. I'm talking about motion here not rendering. Animators moving something is the opposite of a computer moving something. They should never be put together. I'm glad to see the paper man example cause I think it really shows how much nicer hand animated hair and clothing are. I'd now like to see liquid hand animated as well in character animation.

As far as guys like us taking software that already exists and making an example like this. . . turning a stroke into a 3d object isn't it new, 2d tracking isn't new, and motion vectors is nothing new. What makes this interesting is someone combined all these into a tool for the artist to make creative decisions. Then talented artists came up with a new skill through trial and error and experimenting and created something that was original due to their creativity not the technology.
 
Old 12 December 2012   #44
^ Some interesting points. I would agree up to a point, sometimes the cloth/hair sims just look plain wrong when the animation is very stylized.
Having said that I do think it can work if done well. An example for me would be Captain Gutt, the monkey pirate in the most recent Ice Age movie. His animation was pretty pushed for CG (and was really well done IMO, lots of weight and appeal) but the hair sims and dynamic whiskers etc fitted perfectly with that motion. I would guess settings for the dynamics were keyframed on a shot by shot basis to make it work rather than just having an overall setting that would look right when he was moving slowly and then collapse when he did a fast 6 frame move for example.

For me CG is really a lot closer to stop motion than it is to hand drawn animation. With stop motion they can get away with hand animated smoke, water etc, as the audience knows they are looking at models and will accept plastic wrap water or cotton wool smoke puffs, they almost add to the appeal IMO. In CG though the increased motion detail means that it's very unlikely to 'feel' the same though so I think they are right to use dynamics for some elements.
There's no reason someone can't do a more stop motion style in CG by making stylistic choices like animating on 2s (there are examples of this around) but I don't know if the audience will really react to them that well.

Cheers,
Brian
 
Old 12 December 2012   #45
Originally Posted by overEZ: Excellent discussion.
I hope this keeps going, I would love to try some Vector rendering with Blender. Padawan, do you have any experience with this?

From the discussion on this thread and reading about how complex Paperman was stylistically... I assume that any amateur attempt do this will result in a crappy roto-look, at best like Scanner Darkly or even AHA's Take on Me video.

To simulate a hand-sketched look, you've got to have variations in line quality and thickness (even texture of the pencil on paper) or else it will look like your average toon shader - but too much variation and you get the wobblyness of Scanner Darkly.

Also, does anyone know what the word "advected" means exactly? I gather that it has to do with the interpolation of perspective changes... just never heard it before watching the Paperman behind the scenes youtube vid...


The "hackjob" method I was discussing actually involves the use of an external Photo-morpher and a manual artist drawing the "vector lines" in Gimp or Photoshop.

It might work (but definitely not to the extent the Disney tech does) and I haven't tested it.
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