CGTalk > Main > General Discussion
Login register
Thread Closed share thread « Previous Thread | Next Thread »
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 10-01-2012, 08:51 PM   #1
simoncheng
professional
 
simoncheng's Avatar
portfolio
Simon Cheng
Concept designer
Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 1,141
Send a message via Yahoo to simoncheng
Ideas/concept vs render quality

Yesterday i have submitted my artwork but getting rejected by CgSociety admin with reason:
"can't meet the quality of submission"

I really don't understand what it mean, maybe because it is black & white.
Why it is black & white coz i m using Sketchup software and it is also my signature all the time. All these years i been submitted but no problem but why now?
If not then who approved it all these years?

For the information that artwork is special develop for Asiagraph 2012 exhibition @ Tokyo, Japan and all i want is sharing over here. This artwork is NDA free.

Aren't Sketchup a 3D software and if not why it is not in the image submit's software selection? Just because the majority here not using or they are not sponsor anything.
3D software is just a tool, most important is the idea/concept.

If really concern about quality, filter those with 3D automobile render or 3D interior render coz some/most of it are using standard default download or model the existing market available car/props model with just add on render skill.
I don't really see any new idea/concept overall but some artist are still professional with own design/concept. (it is getting rare)
If this continue the industry/market will be full of render artist instead of develop artist with new idea/concept.
As a pioneer cg site should be push more on idea/concept development not candy eye render gallery, then the new generation will able to develop the direction instead focus on render software.

I already been here since 7 years ago and it is time for me to stop subscribe the CGS Connect Member since here prefer candy eye render than ideas/concept development.
No reason for me to continue a membership on rendering gallery site.
Thank you so much all these year and best wish to all artist, please share more new concept/idea instead another render stuff coz industry/market need new idea/concept not candy eye render.

Or i really too old for the render culture?
Maybe some discussion/talk about this topic.
 
Old 10-01-2012, 09:01 PM   #2
darthviper107
Expert
 
darthviper107's Avatar
portfolio
Zachary Brackin
3D Artist
Precocity LLC
Dallas, USA
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,016
I would say it's not because you used sketchup, or that it's black and white. I would say it's because it looks more like a preliminary concept, they're really cool designs but the presentation isn't finished.

The forum that you would get turned down from is this one:
http://forums.cgsociety.org/forumdisplay.php?f=121

Which is for completed high quality images, they aren't just accepting people who know how to use preset materials so you won't be seeing interiors there like you mentioned that just use default materials
__________________
The Z-Axis
 
Old 10-01-2012, 09:46 PM   #3
leif3d
Solving 9999 things a day
 
leif3d's Avatar
portfolio
Leif Pedersen
RenderMan Specialist
Pixar
San Francisco, USA
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,913
Someone needs to do something to minimize these "me me me" threads when people don't get their way.
Someone could also invent a hormone to logic converter: Type in hormone crazed thread, software converts it to an apologetic thread, as that's the most likely outcome once everyone gives the OP a reality check.
__________________
LEIF3D.com
 
Old 10-01-2012, 10:43 PM   #4
conbom
Expert
portfolio
ET
United Kingdom
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 662
Quote:
If really concern about quality, filter those with 3D automobile render or 3D interior render coz some/most of it are using standard default download or model the existing market available car/props model with just add on render skill.
I don't really see any new idea/concept overall but some artist are still professional with own design/concept. (it is getting rare)
If this continue the industry/market will be full of render artist instead of develop artist with new idea/concept.
As a pioneer cg site should be push more on idea/concept development not candy eye render gallery, then the new generation will able to develop the direction instead focus on render software.


I totally agree with you!

I personally think the designs are solid and stand as they are without being rendered into a painting, its not a me me me thread, he is making a valid argument that production designs are not accepted on the forums as a viable completed work. I have seen your work before and its very strong from a design point of view, i know a ton of very respected artists that agree with it too.

Funnily enough in the "real world" its not like that at all, some very highly respected art directors have mentioned to me in the past how good it is to see solid production art in portfolios and how rare it is that they actually see it. Especially as it's so crucial to the production. Rendered to within an inch of their lives paintings get priority on art forums. I would have hoped a website such as this with a "professional" slant would be open minded enough to see beyond airbrushing and let designs stand for what they are.

It could be just that its a catagory error. The forum only likes to see concept art and illustration which to me = paintings and pretty pictures. No idea why though.

That said if you rendered a few of those ships up they would look completely amazing imho

Last edited by conbom : 10-01-2012 at 10:53 PM.
 
Old 10-02-2012, 12:10 AM   #5
leif3d
Solving 9999 things a day
 
leif3d's Avatar
portfolio
Leif Pedersen
RenderMan Specialist
Pixar
San Francisco, USA
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,913
Quote:
Originally Posted by conbom
I personally think the designs are solid and stand as they are without being rendered into a painting, its not a me me me thread, he is making a valid argument that production designs are not accepted on the forums as a viable completed work.


People that make digital paintings or renders ALSO go through design stages, but they ALSO complete many stages after that to make a finalized 2d or 3d render.
Design is beautiful on it's own, no one is denying that, but the galleries are usually for completed and rendered works.

No one wants to purchase a book or walk into a museum to view emotionless and story-less images. People are captivated by the complexities of an image in many more ways than just design.
__________________
LEIF3D.com
 
Old 10-02-2012, 12:34 AM   #6
JWRodegher
-
 
JWRodegher's Avatar
portfolio
Jonathan W Rodegher
Senior Lighter
Ilion Animation Studios
Madrid, Espańa
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,295
Send a message via AIM to JWRodegher Send a message via MSN to JWRodegher
Funny the OP posts something like this when there's a work like this currently on the gallery:
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthr...m_source=cgtalk

That should give you an idea of what is expected for the works to make it to the gallery on top of great design. CgSociety, despite being a "professional" oriented comunity (and I say professional between quotes as most of the people around here are hobbysts), appreciate story/emotions over design and such. Which is why, no one cares if you designed from the screws a new car, or if it's a purchased model or whatever, as long as it has an awesome value in composition, color, lighting, emotion, story or the likes, it's gonna be a solid candidate for the gallery.

Not saying I necessarily agree with it, but from what I've seen, that's the way it is. And you can go ahead and show me some works that doesn't have any of this, but then it is just your opinion or mine. Another thing, you can't make people do something they're not interested in. You like design things, great, other people enjoy other things, and on this site, most users seems to be interested in other phases of "art".
 
Old 10-02-2012, 02:01 AM   #7
Quadart
It’s the journey…
 
Quadart's Avatar
portfolio
Bill Melvin
freelance cg artist
USA
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,706

I think your last image failed precisely because the design couldn’t carry it. A work needs at least one redeeming characteristic, whether it’s superficial eye-candy appeal, a message, interesting design, or strong stylistic expression. You have some work in the gallery, some didn’t make it. The problem here is you seem to think that all of your ‘designs’ are exceptional, which is not the case.
__________________
 
Old 10-02-2012, 02:21 AM   #8
simoncheng
professional
 
simoncheng's Avatar
portfolio
Simon Cheng
Concept designer
Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 1,141
Send a message via Yahoo to simoncheng
It is not about "me me me" if we really look seriously about it.
I know it is a very complex discussion here but in real life industry doesn't work that way.
I been working with few video game/movies project and the result is far more nasty than this.

Example:
If any of us ever purchase "The art of Starwars or any movie/video games artbook".
The content inside are 75%-90% are generally sketch/digital art with awesome concept.
The director or George Lucas doesn't need any beautiful render work and he believe later ILM can do their magic in production/post-production. All he need more solid concept to feed him ideas. If we really look into works of Ian Mc Caig, Ryan Church, Feng Zhu or Alex Jaeger, then we can know what are the different ideas/concepts vs beautiful render works. So what is completed and rendered works?
Do it more valuable than ideas/concept? If yes then why not CGSociety hosting more beautiful render workshop than develop content workshop.

In real life industry doesn't have time for you to those beautiful render coz time frame are such expensive unless fan-art/hobby works. Maybe some real life project require beautiful render but rare in numbers.

Yes, there are many awesome works at:
http://forums.cgsociety.org/forumdisplay.php?f=121
but how many of this can general feed the video game/movie director in real life? (sorry, no offense but just real life discussion and i personally love beautiful artwork too) How long/much they spend on the artwork also another real factor. There is still some awesome solid concept artwork in that thread but in very little number.

This thread:
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthr...m_source=cgtalk
have very awesome work, I personally love this artist works as well but yet again how many are there in number?
How many time do we/industry need to see existing Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini or realistic celebrities people render in different artist style/way?
Doesn't need me to show any artwork, just like i say drop into industry zone or purchase any artbook of movie/video game will get the answer.

If we doesn't change is fine but how are us gonna adapt into real life industry?
I know art is a very subjective topic but at less it need a proper direction.
Visual content are very important to artist/designer career life, that is one of the thing i always told the students when in university/college as industry guest lecturer.

In here we should be develop more visual and concept direction instead everyday feeding candy eye render artwork. Nowaday an artist/designer career life are very tough and difficult to survive.
Few of the beautiful render is enough for one artist/designer as portfolio and the rest should be have something different.
 
Old 10-02-2012, 02:36 AM   #9
simoncheng
professional
 
simoncheng's Avatar
portfolio
Simon Cheng
Concept designer
Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 1,141
Send a message via Yahoo to simoncheng
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadart
I think your last image failed precisely because the design couldn’t carry it. A work needs at least one redeeming characteristic, whether it’s superficial eye-candy appeal, a message, interesting design, or strong stylistic expression. You have some work in the gallery, some didn’t make it. The problem here is you seem to think that all of your ‘designs’ are exceptional, which is not the case.


Well as i say, art is very subjective so is the food.
You may like spicy food but i may not.
But bar/ban the chef to present it for discussion with other chef is a sad thing.
You may think the food is raw because you do not like sashimi but to other maybe not.

I m not thinking all my design are exceptional and please don't get it wrong.
What i mean is the design element should be part of the visual content not just beautiful render by personal opinion/judgement.

Think again few years from now CgSociety became art gallery more than visual content development discussion/sharing site, what will it be. There is so much cg site available out there with gallery section but getting less good sharing.
Seriously if ask me CgSociety/Cg Talk are far more awesome during 5-7 years ago.
Even number of traffic. (it can be found at value of cgsociety.org history graph)

Last edited by simoncheng : 10-02-2012 at 02:57 AM.
 
Old 10-02-2012, 02:59 AM   #10
JWRodegher
-
 
JWRodegher's Avatar
portfolio
Jonathan W Rodegher
Senior Lighter
Ilion Animation Studios
Madrid, Espańa
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,295
Send a message via AIM to JWRodegher Send a message via MSN to JWRodegher
You are going out of line now, no one is banning you from showing anything. You can put your work in the wip or the focused critique forums. End of story.

And by the way, what industry are you talking about when you say "real life industry"? Because there´s plenty of industries who actually need "the pretty picture, eye candy" stuff. Plus,I don´t appreciate the way you underestimate a whole art form saying "people like doing just eye candy and pretty pictures". There´s a lot of disciplines, education, study and practice going on in this images. Why you believe that everyone should be doing design and "visual development" is totally beyond me.

And again, Cgtalk is gonna be about whatever its owners consider that is interesting and whatever the comunity wants it to be. This particular comunity is inclined to appreciate images with story and certain rendering quality, if it isn´t interesting for you, just go ahead and search for a design driven comunity and see if your work fits better in such places. Of course there´s a bunch of people around here who love design and appreciate it for what it is, though they´re a minority I believe. But coming around and telling everyone what they should be doing, is arrogant and actually pretty silly.
 
Old 10-02-2012, 04:16 AM   #11
leif3d
Solving 9999 things a day
 
leif3d's Avatar
portfolio
Leif Pedersen
RenderMan Specialist
Pixar
San Francisco, USA
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,913
Quote:
Originally Posted by simoncheng
Example:
If any of us ever purchase "The art of Starwars or any movie/video games artbook".
The content inside are 75%-90% are generally sketch/digital art with awesome concept.
The director or George Lucas doesn't need any beautiful render work and he believe later ILM can do their magic in production/post-production. All he need more solid concept to feed him ideas. If we really look into works of Ian Mc Caig, Ryan Church, Feng Zhu or Alex Jaeger, then we can know what are the different ideas/concepts vs beautiful render works. So what is completed and rendered works?

What is?! Have you watched the result of those images? You know...in the actual movie?...
Lucas needs those talented people at the very beginning of production so he can move on to award winning computer graphics...you know, by the people who make "pretty pictures"...
Quote:
Originally Posted by simoncheng
In real life industry doesn't have time for you to those beautiful render coz time frame are such expensive unless fan-art/hobby works. Maybe some real life project require beautiful render but rare in numbers.

That's why great work IS rare, because it takes an extraordinary amount of effort, not an ordinary amount of effort.
Quote:
Originally Posted by simoncheng
If we doesn't change is fine but how are us gonna adapt into real life industry?

cgtalk isn't a counseling site...

In the end, you're posting a series of rhetorical questions, after which you are absorbing absolutely nothing of what is being said and have no intent on reevaluating your ideas about a topic. Why bother starting a thread with this attitude?
__________________
LEIF3D.com
 
Old 10-02-2012, 05:37 AM   #12
Panupat
Expert
 
Panupat's Avatar
portfolio
Panupat Chong
Thailand
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,942
Simon - you as an artists have to know the proper place to post your work. There are tons other websites that are focused on concepts. Conceptart.org for example.
 
Old 10-02-2012, 05:41 AM   #13
Tamagoo
Frequenter
portfolio
Nerijus
Reseda, United States Minor Outlying Islands
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by leif3d
People that make digital paintings or renders ALSO go through design stages, but they ALSO complete many stages after that to make a finalized 2d or 3d render.
Design is beautiful on it's own, no one is denying that, but the galleries are usually for completed and rendered works.

No one wants to purchase a book or walk into a museum to view emotionless and story-less images. People are captivated by the complexities of an image in many more ways than just design.


I would disagree. It is sometimes much more captivating and wondrous to see the preliminary design before it has been fully visualized. I looked through his gallery and the designs stand their ground, if he chooses to keep them as they are then all the best. I have seen some master painter's preliminary mural sketches and then the completed work. The initial sketches some of the times were so much more captivating than the fully rendered ones.

Maybe it is my own perspective, but I enjoy seeing such black and white designs. There is something very appealing about it.

Last edited by Tamagoo : 10-02-2012 at 05:46 AM.
 
Old 10-02-2012, 07:33 AM   #14
Meloncov
Expert
 
Meloncov's Avatar
portfolio
Kevin Baker
Freelance Modeller
Oakland, USA
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,369
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamagoo
I would disagree. It is sometimes much more captivating and wondrous to see the preliminary design before it has been fully visualized. I looked through his gallery and the designs stand their ground, if he chooses to keep them as they are then all the best. I have seen some master painter's preliminary mural sketches and then the completed work. The initial sketches some of the times were so much more captivating than the fully rendered ones.

Maybe it is my own perspective, but I enjoy seeing such black and white designs. There is something very appealing about it.


Seeing preliminary work is definitely cool; that's why there is a WIP section.
__________________
kevinbakercg.com
 
Old 10-02-2012, 04:39 PM   #15
leif3d
Solving 9999 things a day
 
leif3d's Avatar
portfolio
Leif Pedersen
RenderMan Specialist
Pixar
San Francisco, USA
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,913
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamagoo
I have seen some master painter's preliminary mural sketches and then the completed work. The initial sketches some of the times were so much more captivating than the fully rendered ones..

You said it yourself, a master painter goes through initial sketches for the purposes of a final work of art. The finalized image is the goal, not the sketch.

When a master painter has enough demand for work, he can sell and even hang sketches in museums because of demand, it has little to do with the quality of the work. No one will agree that the initial sketch of a renaissance fresco has more artistic merit than the finished fresco, but I agree, they are very interesting to look at.

The gallery applies similar standards.
__________________
LEIF3D.com
 
Thread Closed share thread


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
CGSociety
Society of Digital Artists
www.cgsociety.org

Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2006,
Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Minimize Ads
Forum Jump
Miscellaneous

All times are GMT. The time now is 11:35 AM.


Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.