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  09 September 2012
Originally Posted by evolucian: Of courses nothing changes. Action movies are marketed to boys and men. Not girls and women.

Male characters are portrayed as such because the audience relates to the fact that they can step into the lead's shoes and be that hero somehow in a MacGyver type of way. "Wish i could do that"

Female characters cannot get a "Wish i could do that" from a male audience no matter what they do or how smart their characters are. They have to rely on things that women can "sell" to men. In an action flick, you're left with sexy outfits, limber acrobatics and explosions with sweaty women walking away.

Why do you think Michael Bay does so well. You give him a $10000 budget and he'll still be able to add two more 0's to that figure in revenue. He knows and plays the audience.

As for making an action flick with a "smart" female lead, that'll happen as soon as the majority of the action film audience is women.


I have no idea what you are talking about, when Lara Croft enters the scene and kick ass I get just as excited :P. Salt was quite a good movie with a very strong female lead.
 
  09 September 2012
All of what you are saying may be acceptable from a philosphical or social/evolutionary point of view (and it would be interesting to hear and talk about...in a bar with a beer with friends on the table) but one of your last sentences suggests that with men it is "what you see is what you get" which is quite non-sense.

What I watch in the movies and how I behave and what I appreciate in real life are two totally different things. One thing is reality the other is something I can escape to, satisfy my primal instincts for my own chosen pleasure if you want to put it that way.
But that says nothing about how or who I am, it's just entertainment. If I want real life conditions and stories, I stay in real life. You should be a lil more distinctive imo in what you link to what...which I could also pull down into a deeper discussion about female equality, their social status and how this reaction of yours is actually inevitable but also insulting at the same time although you tried to point to a good thing but then also condemning all the others that don't fit and need to be modified...but that probably simply is out of scope here.

I love ripley, she is determined, protective and pure will. That impresses me and is kind of sexy in its own way. But I wouldn't want her as tomb raider. There I need something obviously sexy, hot and vital, satisfying a fantasy. I don't see how this can be wrong.

Oh btw. did anybody mention Magic Mike yet? ALL of my lady friends went to see it...mothers, party people, kindergarden pedagogics...they all went...are women lost now or do they join the dark side of men? ; ) honestly Leigh...I think you are a little too anxious here.

Originally Posted by leigh: But that's little more than a social construct. To go deeper into this would require a discussion on the difference between sex and gender, and how society develops and caters to both (with a particular focus on gender and the social constructs of gender roles), but it's really a discussion in itself and frankly I'm feeling too lazy to go into it, as I'm relaxing on my sofa with a nice beer. Suffice to say, have you ever considered that action films appeal largely to men because society tells us that's how things should be?



Which is pretty lame, let's face it. A lot of this boils down to the pervasive cultural attitude which considers things which are "feminine" (another social construct) to be inferior. Therefore, men aren't interested in it, because they're discouraged from it. Whereas you'll find lots of females enjoy the likes of MacGyver, because there's no frowning down on aspiring to male inventiveness, adventure and intelligence. It's kinda like how nobody particularly cares if a little girl plays with toy guns or cars, but when a little boy plays with a doll - oh dear, we can't have that, now can we? This particular situation often gives rise to hysterical concern over whether the boy might be (shock! horror!) gay, and male homophobia is deeply rooted in mysogyny.

So it's not surprising that most men aren't inclined to have "I wish I could do that" moments with female characters, since most of society has indoctrinated them with the belief that anything feminine is inherently inferior, silly and not to be participated in.



See my point above. It could just as easily happen if society at large stopped denigrating its own invention of "feminine" things.

Also, Ripley? She was awesome. Her popularity shows that a lot of men aren't full of shit when it comes to appreciating female leads.

And now I'm going back to my beer.
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  09 September 2012
Originally Posted by Katachi: All of what you are saying may be acceptable from a philosphical or social/evolutionary point of view (and it would be interesting to hear and talk about...in a bar with a beer with friends on the table) but one of your last sentences suggests that with men it is "what you see is what you get" which is quite non-sense.

What I watch in the movies and how I behave and what I appreciate in real life are two totally different things. One thing is reality the other is something I can escape to, satisfy my primal instincts for my own chosen pleasure if you want to put it that way.
But that says nothing about how or who I am, it's just entertainment. If I want real life conditions and stories, I stay in real life. You should be a lil more distinctive imo in what you link to what...which I could also pull down into a deeper discussion about female equality, their social status and how this reaction of yours is actually inevitable but also insulting at the same time although you tried to point to a good thing but then also condemning all the others that don't fit and need to be modified...but that probably simply is out of scope here.

I love ripley, she is determined, protective and pure will. That impresses me and is kind of sexy in its own way. But I wouldn't want her as tomb raider. There I need something obviously sexy, hot and vital, satisfying a fantasy. I don't see how this can be wrong.

Oh btw. did anybody mention Magic Mike yet? ALL of my lady friends went to see it...mothers, party people, kindergarden pedagogics...they all went...are women lost now or do they join the dark side of men? ; ) honestly Leigh...I think you are a little too anxious here.


These aren't my opinions, they're based on countless studies by countless groups of sociologists, psychologists and other experts over the decades. If you really don't believe that gender roles exist in our society and that most kids are indoctrinated into them from birth (baby boys wear blue, baby girls wear pink! little boys must play with guns and cars, little girls must play with dolls! etc), then you're kidding yourself. The whole subject of gender roles is actually really fascinating and worth looking into if you're interested. So much of why we'd consider our own personal tastes are actually shaped by our surroundings.
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  09 September 2012
Here's an overview of the fundamentals.

And some more.
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  09 September 2012
Originally Posted by leigh: These aren't my opinions, they're based on countless studies by countless groups of sociologists, psychologists and other experts over the decades. If you really don't believe that gender roles exist in our society and that most kids are indoctrinated into them from birth (baby boys wear blue, baby girls wear pink! little boys must play with guns and cars, little girls must play with dolls! etc), then you're fooling yourself.


I am not making any judgements about the existance or correctness of your statements. It's probably true (I was in a relation with a child pedagog for 6 years. piagé, montessori etc. I'm all informed about the studies of children's sexuality and how it is educated by parents), but only from a social point of view. Biologically you could at the same time argue that sexually motivated bio-chemical reactions cannot be suppressed by simple education. Neuro-psychology would probably even have more arguments against it (I figure because my diploma thesis I did with the neurobiological institute here in Germany, Leipzig). But again, this is probably out of scope of this forums. Have you actually read what I wrote? I am not sure when I read your answer.

And btw, you cannot tell me "these are not my opinion" when you stated "Her popularity shows that a lot of men aren't full of shit when it comes to appreciating female leads. ". This is a clear judgement to me (and it's a reaction on the information you posted before that) and therefore must be based on your opinion, so please stop trying to be "uninvolved" when you clearly express opinion and at the same time defend (why do you feel personally approached if these are not your opinion? Then I don't understand and please elaborate so I can understand what is your opinion here and what is pure information obtained from studies)

And that was what my answer was about. If you had read my post carefully, you would have seen that I was asking you why the "facts" that you stated lead you to the conclusion that men must be "full of shit" just because they like what a primal instinct tells them (whether it may be supported, seconded, fed, increased, indoctrinated or whatever...call it what you want, in the end it's just making something that is already there much bigger) namely a stronger visual attraction and pleasing of a male to a beautiful female (of the same species) that clearly embodies the willingness to show off her female advantages in a sexual manner.

Btw. It's a neurological reactino that exists, even with people that were educated liberally and without old-baked primate like values. That is also shown in numerous studies in this field, you must have read that too if you are quoting from studies, otherwise I don't know which studies you mean. There are sexual pre-dispositions and patterns that cannot be conciously accessed and have formed over thousands of years.

Now I don't say this is an excuse to behave like an ape or educate children that way, rather the contrary. I do have an all modern liberal view on these things (thx to my ex I am a Montessori advocate) but I still don't see things in black or white as you and do not simply bury the facts of biochemistry of a human male/female. And this clearly makes the man like good looking women, tits & arses in movies (a homosexual would probably like man with muscles, a woman too, a lesbian woman would probably like what a man likes...how do you explain that? indoctrinated by society?). That's not simply a choice a man makes (I can tell, I belong to that gender myself...) and if you don't know this feeling yourself, well, I can't imagine...I know it from the first day I got into puberty.

That is my opinion. Are we talking about the same thing?
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Last edited by Katachi : 09 September 2012 at 01:15 PM.
 
  09 September 2012
Wait, so you have a problem simply because I implied that men who have a hard time appreciating a female lead are full of shit? Well sorry that my opinion (yes that is an opinion, I previously thought you were saying the stuff about gender roles was my opinion) seems to offend you but I'm sticking with it. Because it is frankly stupid to not be able to appreciate a character just because they're a different sex.

I never, as you seem to think, said there was anything wrong with men feeling sexually attracted to a woman in a film. In fact, I didn't say anything whatsoever about sexual attraction and films apart from saying that female characters generally rely on sex appeal. I didn't, however, post any comments or judgments about male sexual response to that. The word I used was "appreciate" - in other words, I was referring back to my earlier point about anything feminine being regarded as inherently weaker by society and therefore the fact that many men are incapable of appreciating a female character since they're generally perceived as being weaker than males. My entire post was about gender; gender is not sex. I said nothing about sexual attraction, let alone make any judgments about that. So I have no idea what you're ranting about :/
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  09 September 2012
For clarity, my comment about Ripley and the fact that some men are thankfully able to appreciate her as a character was directly related to this part earlier in my post:

Quote: So it's not surprising that most men aren't inclined to have "I wish I could do that" moments with female characters, since most of society has indoctrinated them with the belief that anything feminine is inherently inferior, silly and not to be participated in.
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  09 September 2012
Best film ever quite possibly.
 
  09 September 2012
The first Resident Evil film was very good and really brought the game to life. The follow up films were nowhere near as good IMHO. The Milla babe might be able to make RE5 special, if she hasn't got too old or fat by now. I mean she must be at least 35 by now.
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  09 September 2012
Originally Posted by Dillster: The Milla babe might be able to make RE5 special, if she hasn't got too old or fat by now. I mean she must be at least 35 by now.


Comments like this make me despair for humanity.
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  09 September 2012
Well Leigh, 35 would be nearly as old as my mother. Somehow picturing a woman as old as my mother being a zombie killing action babe seems kind of weird. BTW don't tell my mother I said that, she can still throw kitchen weapons faster than my Dad (or me probably) can dodge them.
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  09 September 2012
Then you must be very young indeed. I turned 33 last month (although I'm frequently asked for ID when buying beer as I don't look my age at all), and I could certainly hold my own in a zombie fight. And I'm not just talking about my XBox.
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  09 September 2012
Of course men in movies are sexualized, too. Even more so in the last years.

How are most action stars not attractive?

Even the tough testosterone guys with boxer face get their (semi-) erotic moment these days. Craig Bond bound naked to a chair showing off his muscles, anyone?

Obviously there are some differences in what our society perceives as attractive and sensual in a man as opposed to a woman. And yes, many of those differences are misogynistic leftovers that will take some time to overcome. In some cases it´s not even desirable, IMO. Therte´s nothing wrong with appreciating female beauty...or male, for that matter.

But to say that men in movies these days are not as reduced to basic sex symbols as women is simply incorrect.

Heck, Twilight anyone?

Just going through a list of popular actors these days you´ll find MANY that wouldn´t have made it without their looks.
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  09 September 2012
Originally Posted by Dillster: Well Leigh, 35 would be nearly as old as my mother. Somehow picturing a woman as old as my mother being a zombie killing action babe seems kind of weird. BTW don't tell my mother I said that, she can still throw kitchen weapons faster than my Dad (or me probably) can dodge them.



I saw the original ALIEN first when I was 13 or so. Ripley could have been my mother, easily, but this young teen found her to be a very sexy woman and interesting person.
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  09 September 2012
Originally Posted by CB_3D: How are most action stars not attractive?


I didn't say none of them are, but many aren't. Clint Eastwood, Bruce Willis, Liam Neeson, Arnie, Sylvester Stallone, Sean Connery, Chuck Norris, Steven Seagal, Nicholas Cage - none of these guys are particularly conventionally attractive. Women tend to find them attractive because they're charming or just manly, for lack of a better word. The same goes for Daniel Craig actually - he's not conventionally handsome at all. His attraction lies in his confidence, his wit, his charm. You could argue that many of these men are pretty buff and that's generally considered attractive, but I daresay buff actors are chosen because males in the audience are more likely to aspire to alpha male types. In other words, they're catering to the males, while attractive women are catering to the makes too, not females. Broadly speaking, of course. I also wasn't just talking about action films. Loads of male leads are unattractive yet popular, ranging from the likes of John Candy, Bill Murray and Chevy Chase when I was a kid to Seth Rogan and Jonah Hill. How many unattractive and/or fat female actors have enjoyed as much success as unattractive, fat male actors? Not nearly as many.

I'm not really saying any of this is right or wrong, mind you. It's just an observation on how actors tend to be cast in roles for specific reasons.

And for what it's worth, that guy in the Twilight films? Ewww. He's like an overgrown boy.
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