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Old 09-12-2012, 09:30 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BojanStankovski
How drawing will help me for my Zbrush character design? Or do i need to spend 10.000hour rule to learn 3D and another 10.000 for drawing?

I always say—Good design starts with lines.

Personally, I feel digital sculpting is an extension of my drawing skill, as is painting. I use the same drawing process ‘mechanics’ while ‘sculpting’ digitally, with a Wacom tablet. Traditional sculpting, to me, is a much more tactile process. For example, when I did clay sculpting, I used both hands comfortably (without tools), which is not the case when drawing, painting (beside doing some paint smudging with a right hand finger) or ZBing. I hit the ground running with ZB, after wrapping my head around the gui, as a result of my drawing foundation. I also don’t practice ZB sculpting in between occasional sculpts, but I do practice drawing. I’m sure I’ve got many more than 10000 hours of stylus noodling in.
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Old 09-12-2012, 09:33 PM   #17
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I could draw ok as a kid. But I could only draw what I was looking at. I'm still that way. I took a college Art Drawing class because I wanted to learn more about drawing (this was pre-Internet). The teacher took all my drawing tools away from me and gave me some wooden pencil to use. He wanted me to draw by hand only and measure using just my thumb. It was difficult at first, challenging, rewarding. The class taught me a lot about basic stuff like gray scale and values and color mixing and drawing light. I understood the reasons why my drawings looked accurate and real. I didn't know the terminology used by graphic designers until I took the class. I didn't know about human figure proportions either.

The students that stayed with the class to the end were those that enjoyed drawing and enjoyed learning new drawing techniques. Those that dropped out either wanted to just do abstract scribblings that looked nothing like the subjects they were supposed to draw, or they were not able to visualize in spacial terms and could not draw perspective views.

I think it's a cultural thing whether someone can draw or not. In time, someone can force themselves to learn. But if they are not having fun doing it, well you know the rest.

ADDED:
I have drawing books, but have not used them. Because now I model on the computer mostly. My art class in college didn't use any books either. So I have no idea really what is a good book to learn drawing from.

I've never sculpted in clay. But when I model a CG humun figure, I can imagine what sculpting would be like.

Last edited by ShawnDriscoll : 09-12-2012 at 09:43 PM.
 
Old 09-12-2012, 09:51 PM   #18
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I feel like I've always had artistic talent and an understanding of art, but I am still learning and I am always working towards improvement.
 
Old 09-13-2012, 12:46 AM   #19
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I remember that thread Artbot is speaking of on concept.org. If you can find it, it will enlighten you to the truest answer. Pleeeeez somebody post it again. I love showing it to my students. By the way, I'm also a big haterade of the 10,000 hour rule. I think it's being used to inspire people but frankly it just doesn't make sense. I could practice basketball for 10,000 hours and I'd still get my first shot swatted into the rafters by Lebron James. In other words, talent does matter, but it certainly is faaaar from everything. After teaching 10,000 students in 12 years, I can honestly say that some of them (a very small portion thankfully) with 100,000 hours in Maya (and traditional art too) would still create cornea melting work. Not trying to discourage anyone here, but the truth is the truth.
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Old 09-13-2012, 01:34 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPositive
I remember that thread Artbot is speaking of on concept.org. If you can find it, it will enlighten you to the truest answer. Pleeeeez somebody post it again. I love showing it to my students.


Conceptart.org has been down the last week or so, or it'd be easy to find. It's MindCandyMan's sketchbook.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPositive
By the way, I'm also a big haterade of the 10,000 hour rule. I think it's being used to inspire people but frankly it just doesn't make sense. I could practice basketball for 10,000 hours and I'd still get my first shot swatted into the rafters by Lebron James. In other words, talent does matter, but it certainly is faaaar from everything. After teaching 10,000 students in 12 years, I can honestly say that some of them (a very small portion thankfully) with 100,000 hours in Maya (and traditional art too) would still create cornea melting work. Not trying to discourage anyone here, but the truth is the truth.


The primary scientific basis for the ten thousand hour rule is a study done on violin students that showed that the quality of their performance correlated perfectly with the number of hours they had spent practicing. There weren't any students who learned quickly and performed remarkably well for the number of hours they had practiced, or the reverse. Eventually, one hard working student might become a world class performer while another equally hard working student would end up as a second chair at a local symphony, but this divergence doesn't happen until a very high level of play.

However, classical violin is an extremely precise, technical art form. There isn't much evidence that the same thing holds true for visual arts.
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Old 09-13-2012, 02:16 AM   #21
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It's like driving. After 250,000 miles, I driver is consider an expert and can handle city highway driving in all conditions. But... they have no skill driving at much faster speeds beyond city speed limits. Driving 90+ mph, after driving only 65 mph all your life, requires a whole other level of skill.
 
Old 09-13-2012, 02:19 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artbot
The "10,000 hour rule" is mostly apocryphal. You get better as you go, and will hit plateaus, cliffs, and walls along the way. Search for an old thread over on ConceptArt.org where the guy set out to draw every day for 1 year and post all of his progress. It's really mind-blowing how much better he became very quickly.

Also do a search here, as there are many (long) threads asking your exact question.

Well stated.
The 10kH rule is an obsolete (from inception) concept that was never a good idea or a good indication to begin with. I'd go as far as saying that it was questionable when formulated, and absolute bullshit now.

It was largely based on studies that involved a level of training and dexterity and pure physical development, alongside other things, that have more to do with the physical than they do with an individual's ability to learn in general. Similarly to how, without altering your anabolic environment, you can only train your body that far in a given amount of time.
Most visual arts don't have anywhere near the same requirments or limitations, and are more strongly affected by other factors.

The assumption learning something and how long it takes can be summarized so brutally is flawed to begin with, the idea it would apply to any person and any craft over the years even more so.

And if everybody had to spend 10k hours drawing before they got anywhere as a professional in the modelling or creature design field, I think I'd be left with maybe 1/5 or less of the people sitting around me right now in the blink of an eye.

Pursue foundation work, drawing is as good a tool as any to develop certain skills, but not the only one, and just keep at it. Commitment multiplied by aptitude will determine where you get in how long.

Yes, there IS such a thing as "talent", in the form of how your brain forms certain neural connections faster or slower than others compared to other individuals for some key subjects. No, a high aptitude is not required to become a solid professional with a rewarding career, nor guarantee you would be if you had it.
Hard work can offset it for any given person of average intelligence with no directly related disabilities.

If you want more opinions, learn what will be your MOST fundamental skill early, to do research, and dig up old threads where this has been discussed to death. The family of the horse can't take it any longer, and would like the carcass back
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Last edited by ThE_JacO : 09-13-2012 at 02:25 AM.
 
Old 09-13-2012, 02:41 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThE_JacO
The assumption learning something and how long it takes can be summarized so brutally is flawed to begin with, the idea it would apply to any person and any craft over the years even more so.


I disagree, it is generally accepted that juniors in CG who have had less time perfecting their skills are less talented than seniors in CG who have had more time. Thus generally more time spent = better skills.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThE_JacO
And if everybody had to spend 10k hours drawing before they got anywhere as a professional in the modelling or creature design field, I think I'd be left with maybe 1/5 or less of the people sitting around me right now in the blink of an eye.


No one is stating that you can't do professional drawing until you have spent 10k hours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThE_JacO
Yes, there IS such a thing as "talent", in the form of how your brain forms certain neural connections faster or slower than others compared to other individuals for some key subjects.


I absolutely disagree with this. (As stated above) no one is born with abilities or talents. "Talents" are acquired as someone practices something over and over again, that is how the brain forms those neural connections. So what this boils down to again is that: more time spent = better skills.

Whenever someone says to me something along the lines of "you are talented at xxx", I reply back saying there is no such thing as talent, and they could be do what I can if they had spent the time as well.
 
Old 09-13-2012, 03:17 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Njen
I disagree, it is generally accepted that juniors in CG who have had less time perfecting their skills are less talented than seniors in CG who have had more time. Thus generally more time spent = better skills.

huh?
I said that boxing it up in a number of hours is stupid, as is not acknowledging by consequence that everybody has different rates for different subjects when it comes to internalizing and externalizing.
At no point in time did I, or anybody else dissing the 10kH rule, said that practice and skills aren't related. I stated exactly that at the end of my post you decided to selectively not quote.

Quote:
No one is stating that you can't do professional drawing until you have spent 10k hours.

No, but they are stating that "mastering" a skill takes that long, and that mastering such skill is a fundamental requisite. I'm stating that professionalism doesn't necessarily require "master" levels, whatever that means, and that it definitely doesn't take that long for some individuals to reach that level to begin with.

Quote:
I absolutely disagree with this. (As stated above) no one is born with abilities or talents. "Talents" are acquired as someone practices something over and over again, that is how the brain forms those neural connections. So what this boils down to again is that: more time spent = better skills.

Actually, I double quoted talent, as the right word is aptitude, and I'm sorry if this bursts your bubble, but it's neurologically proven that there is such thing.
Learning and abilities are largely a matter of neural connections, even many things perceived as physical actually often feature stronger neurological and nervous system factors than they do pure muscle development, let alone dexterity and coordination.

Different people have radically different response and formation time for such connections. Balance is one of the more obvious cases (and any serious action sport athlete and amateur can tell you that), where some people are able to form and adapt habits and balance in literally one twentieth the time others are.
Spatial perception, the ability to relate proportions and space to your vision, the understanding of colour theory, and many other fundamentals of visual arts show similar patterns.

There IS such a thing as neural aptitude that means some people will learn at a much faster rate than others. This isn't some unsubstantiated psychology circle jerk-off ala 10kH, this is what more concrete and factual sciences like neurology have established.

Quote:
Whenever someone says to me something along the lines of "you are talented at xxx", I reply back saying there is no such thing as talent, and they could be do what I can if they had spent the time as well.

Again, you chose to selectively cut out parts of my post.

I also stated that aptitude can easily be offset, when looking at the largest majority of the population, by hard work.
Saying that someone else, had they invested the same effort you did, could have been exactly at your level is asinine though. They could very well have absolutely smoked you at it, or take several times longer to get anywhere near the same output. What stands is that, excepting the extremes, with enough commitment, taking time out of the picture, you can get practically anywhere (again, assuming you're average or better and aren't affected by disabilities impairing the dexterity or perception required to practice those hours).

It's fine to tell people that hard work will get them where they want. It's generally true, and almost totally true in a professional context.

Deciding to ignore the way the brain works and aptitude and predisposition, and choosing to think, and tell others, it's a lie though is plain ignorance of the fundamentals of how your brain relates to learning. As sad as it is for those of us who aren't Fibonacci, Da Vinci or Michael Jordan, we're not created equal, but unless your intention is to achieve legendary status, it shouldn't detract from working hard towards your objectives.
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Old 09-13-2012, 03:21 AM   #25
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Drill practice and experience are not necessarily the same things. If you are having fun doing something, I think you will benefit more from it. Experience comes in handy when a round hole needs to be cut and beveled into a curved surface. Experience comes in handy when you need to UV map an object and retain the proportions. Experience comes in handy when you need to generate flowing water for a scene by end of day.

Also write down settings you used for a certain app if you think you will forget by the time you use that program again because you don't have a whole lot of practice knowing where all the settings are.
 
Old 09-13-2012, 03:24 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Njen
I disagree, it is generally accepted that juniors in CG who have had less time perfecting their skills are less talented than seniors in CG who have had more time. Thus generally more time spent = better skills.


It's a fine generalization to state "more time and practice = you'll get better", but to state absolutely that "10,000 hours practice = expert" is a gross over-simplification and is ultimately unhelpful to anyone's skill development.

For every example the 10,000 hour rule gave to support it's theory, there are likely several other examples where people or groups put in similar time and focus and didn't receive the same success.

And the difference between a junior and senior artist is often not in artistic skill, but rather in other skills that are gained by experience - for example problem solving, communication, work-efficiency, technical know-how, etc.
 
Old 09-13-2012, 03:30 AM   #27
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For the record, it's also been proven (although more so with young people than older), that you can actually boost aptitude, and that you can find connection patterns that work better for you than others, and adapt your learning through those tools.

That is largely why people learn differently, and "learning to learn" is a gigantic part of the deal when trying to progress.

Just go and poke around in the subjects of neuroplasticity, neural coupling and decoupling, and things stemming from there.
There are some interesting insights on why some people will learn faster (or need to) writing things down as they go, and why others actually suffer it as a detrimental practice, and a number of other similar things.
I suggest to stay away from music though, as it's the most insnanely genetically unfair thing out of the lot
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Old 09-13-2012, 03:39 AM   #28
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It is a mix of both.

You have natural ability but unless you harness it and practice using it, it will not go anywhere.

I knew some great artists who could draw really awesome but after high school they stopped drawing, years later they draw and it looks like a 15 year old drew it. Had they had practiced and kept it up they would be at a master level.

I know others who try really hard and practice and try as they may they still suck at drawing even after classes, years of practice and more schooling.

Someone said something about Lebron James. The fact is I could have practiced 10,000 hours and him 2 and he could probably still beat me at basketball.

So to answer your question, just like any talent that is out there you will have both natural ability and gifts mixed with practice.

Just watch an episode of Xfactor, American Idol, The Voice and you'll see some raw talent who can sing right off the bat, then you have others who practice, pay coaches and try for years and still cannot sing.

Quote:
I absolutely disagree with this. (As stated above) no one is born with abilities or talents. "Talents" are acquired as someone practices something over and over again, that is how the brain forms those neural connections. So what this boils down to again is that: more time spent = better skills. Whenever someone says to me something along the lines of "you are talented at xxx", I reply back saying there is no such thing as talent, and they could be do what I can if they had spent the time as well.


Again combo of both natural ability and practice. People grow into their natural ability as parts of the brain begin to form. Yes we are born with certain genetic aptitude. As they physically develop with age those "talents" do start to come out. They are preprogrammed in our DNA but it is up to us to develop them and master but unfortunately some folks brain connections will not help us become a master at something no matter how much we practice.

Last edited by AangtheAvatar : 09-13-2012 at 03:45 AM.
 
Old 09-13-2012, 03:52 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThE_JacO
It's fine to tell people that hard work will get them where they want. It's generally true, and almost totally true in a professional context.


Your post is a little confusing in that parts of it seem to agree with me exactly, and parts of it disagree. All I am saying is that it is a scientific fact that neural pathways build when someone increases the amount of something, which roughly correlates to more time spent = better skills.

I am sure we all have anecdotal references of "some person" that did a small amount of learning and is now amazing at it, but that's the point, they are anomalies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AangtheAvatar
So to answer your question, just like any talent that is out there you will have both natural ability and gifts mixed with practice.


I am saying there is no such thing as "natural abilities" and "gifts". What you don't know about those people who sing on XFactor that apparently have "raw talent" is that they probably have been practicing night and day for many years to get that good.
 
Old 09-13-2012, 03:58 AM   #30
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A great book that helps dispel the myth of the "natural creative" is Imagine. It is a fascinating look into the science of creativity, and to a certain extent skill building:

http://www.langtoninfo.co.uk/showit...7386079&loc=AUD
 
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