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Old 09-13-2012, 06:12 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by th3ta
Just to clarify something. I totally understand and can appreciate how art is used in all these little industries like the shape of the iphone, a new 2013 car model and the ergonomics of a mouse, I get that. I'm an artist too and definitely get that.

My earlier point was more about how the general public doesn't give a crap about that stuff, they don't even notice it. More importantly, that stuff does not matter in the grand scheme of humanity and the world. When you look at the big picture of world economics, religion, wars, political conflicts, etc, etc, etc - the artistic shape of iphones, or colors used on a cereal box just don't matter. That was really my only point. It's just a job and really doesn't serve any greater purpose. Again, just my opinion.


They would notice if you were to take it away. When something becomes a part of your life, you start to focus on problems beyond that which has been solved. The idea is to move forward not backwards. So yeah, of course people care, they just don't think about it. Take away their music, their intuitive tools/tech and you will hear about it very quickly. It is in our nature to solve problems to make things easier for ourselves.

The main problem we are at right now is that too many people want to be like wall street and hollywood. Valuing those people over the ones who produce and help us with services is poisonous to our society. Because wall street can easily pick up and leave town when shit hits the fan. But that's another topic all together.

Quote:
In what way is this phenomenon unique to the CG industry?


Why does it have to be? Some here started to talk about art in general terms, so I kept going with a general frame of mind. I wasn't at all specific to our industry. I'd hate to down play the issue and only focus on a select few, when the issue goes way beyond us.
 
Old 09-13-2012, 06:23 PM   #32
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Quote:
"apple would've been a subdivision of Microsoft were it not for their "art" in marketing and design."


Respectfully disagree Mate
sure some of the Fanboi's and Apple Cultists buy into the alleged "artistic superiority "of Apple hardware form factors
but as a lifelong mac use myself I know that it was
a stable linux /BDS core that gave MAC OSX protected memory and Pre emptive multitasking that made it a viable platform form for serious CG work, ( Maya) is what saved the Mac platform from extinction .

Had Apple merely slapped our cute bubbly interface
onto OS9,(which could not even co-process its own system clock while burning a CD),even Microsoft would not have bought it.
Quote:
"Cars would be toasters on wheels without art, and cheap low end models even today are just that due to development costs alone."

No Sir.. cars have those sleek shapes for the same practical engineering reasons fighter jets do.
they operate inside of earths atmosphere and have to reduce air resistance for fuel efficiency etc.(Aerodynamics)


Apologies to Roberto for my original Derailment of the thread topic.


But just for clarification I came from a "fine art" background before getting into 3D animation.

Shaded pencil drawings,Airbrushing and Acrylic paintings on canvas both still life and seascapes

I am, by most objective standards, an "artist"who has had my paintings shown in some local galleries where I lived years ago.

One of the main reasons I left the' fine art" scene and moved to Print design commercial print design and illustration& 3D.
was because I could no longer stomach the bloated sense of entitlement and self importance to humanity amongst my "peers"

( anecdotally) My 17 year old son is also an artist.

I once visited the private "School for the performing Arts" that he and my 15 year old Daughter attended at one time.

having been identified as the best artist in the class ,The level of deference My son was being shown by his teachers was Disturbing.

At one point a group of them presented Me with is sketchbook and were slowly presenting each drawing when they came across and praised a detailed Shaded pencil illustration of an Athletic shoe that I had actually Drawn in his book myself to show him my approach to choosing a light source and shading accordingly,.. no big deal.

Winston,My son, casually blurted "oh, my Dad drew that one"

and these Bloody ,Silly women gasped & virtually prostrated before me and began prattling on about how they have finally found the "source of my boy's "great gift" ..blah. blah
it was rather sickening.

Afterwards I sternly admonished him to never buy into this delusional hype that his artistic ability somehow makes him a more valuable contributor the "the human experience" than anyone else



Cheers

Last edited by THX1311 : 09-13-2012 at 07:05 PM.
 
Old 09-13-2012, 06:23 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ambient-whisper
Why does it have to be? Some here started to talk about art in general terms, so I kept going with a general frame of mind. I wasn't at all specific to our industry. I'd hate to down play the issue and only focus on a select few, when the issue goes way beyond us.


But the fact is that people keep bringing these issues up and complaining about them as if the CG industry is the only industry with these issues. My point being that these are problems inherent in our culture as a whole, and for that reason, threads like this and others, which attempt to propose solutions but focus solely on this industry, are a frankly quite pointless. This phenomenon of "the little guy" getting screwed while someone at the top rakes in all the coin is the reality of the economic systems which we all democratically support. The economic hierarchies that we have in our societies means that there will always be lots of little guys at the bottom getting "the short end of the stick" and a big guy at the top. If we, as CG artists, somehow managed to rise above little guy status, there'd simply be someone else getting the short end of the stick. That's life.
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Old 09-13-2012, 06:34 PM   #34
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billable hours eventually leads to "pencil whipping" in some cases and/or advanced billing or "holding hours".

Billable hours are good to base an estimate on a job. However, as with anything, the hours become negotiable with clients, especially when itemized. They are subject to approval. Employees bill the hours, but managers audit the hours and decide what will and will not be passed onto the client. It's an added layer of time. The employees have to record the time, client and tasks.

The problem is the low bidding and companies not willing to walk away from a low number. A successful company would probably be smart to low ball a competitor just to get them to drop their prices and then get out before the final bid to force that company to loose money and possibly go bust, therefore eliminating them from future competition. Much like the bidding process in auctions. The trick is getting out before you are stuck with the lowest bid and losing money yourself. If you can't make money, then maybe you can make your competitors loose money. Unfortunately, while the suits negotiate and play business, the talent is often pawns and low level players to be sacrificed and bartered in the name of profit.

Last edited by XLNT-3d : 09-13-2012 at 06:37 PM.
 
Old 09-13-2012, 06:34 PM   #35
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Sorry to get all John Lennon on everyone, but imagine a world without the following:

No music to listen to, no books to read, no movies, no theatre, no photographers, no interior design, no industrial designers, no architects, no actors, no illustrators, no graphic designers, no galleries, etc etc.....

I know this includes mediums outside of visual art, but I see us all under the same creative umbrella. If humanity is around long enough, art will outlive capitalism, democracy, and dare I say it, most if not all of the current religions. As these things tend to change every few thousand years. Yet it is almost certain human beings will always want to express themselves creatively no matter what the politics de jour may look like.

So do we need art to survive? No. Would I want to live in a world without it. No thanks.

Sorry for further bringing this thread off-topic.

Cheers,
Matt
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Old 09-13-2012, 07:03 PM   #36
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Quote:
"If humanity is around long enough, art will outlive capitalism, democracy, and dare I say it, most if not all of the current religions."


If humanity is "Around long enough"
it will Deplete the planets resources with its current rate of consumption and the last thing on people minds will be art galleries and graphic design.

Get out of your ivory tower and review any testimonies from survivors of the nuclear disaster in Japan or anyone living through the Horror of the civil war in Syria ATM
you will not find one complaint about how much "Art " was Destroyed.


Cheers

Last edited by THX1311 : 09-13-2012 at 07:07 PM.
 
Old 09-13-2012, 07:28 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THX1311
If humanity is "Around long enough"
it will Deplete the planets resources with its current rate of consumption and the last thing on people minds will be art galleries and graphic design.

Get out of your ivory tower and review any testimonies from survivors of the nuclear disaster in Japan or anyone living through the Horror of the civil war in Syria ATM
you will not find one complaint about how much "Art " was Destroyed.


Cheers


If we all end up back in mud huts and caves, people will still be widdling wood into characters singing, and painting on walls. But the notion of "billable hours" will be long forgotten.

Anyhow, this would be a fun conversation over a pint or three, but we should probably steer the discussion back to its original topic.

Cheers,
Matt
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Old 09-13-2012, 07:33 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ambient-whisper
They would notice if you were to take it away. When something becomes a part of your life, you start to focus on problems beyond that which has been solved.


That's kind of my point, once things become part of someone's life, they get used to it until something new comes along and tells them it's better.

When cell phones first came out, they were huge blocks with giant antennas, everyone thought they were great! Nobody complained that they were too big or uncomfortable to use or artistically ugly. Back in the 70's were people complaining about how boxy and big and ugly the cars were? Consumers take whatever is given to them. Until they see something better. Then they want that and forgot what life was like before it!
 
Old 09-13-2012, 07:39 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THX1311
If humanity is "Around long enough"
it will Deplete the planets resources with its current rate of consumption and the last thing on people minds will be art galleries and graphic design.

Get out of your ivory tower and review any testimonies from survivors of the nuclear disaster in Japan or anyone living through the Horror of the civil war in Syria ATM
you will not find one complaint about how much "Art " was Destroyed.


Cheers


I think you are completely missing the point. You are bringing up situations where people are struggling to even keep hold of their humanity, let alone advance it. Going on your thought process, the only thing a person needs is the ability to seek shelter in a cave and hunt. Humans survived without doctors or scientists for millennia. That doesn't mean the world is a better place without them. Do people need art to live... no. Do people need art to live happy lives, I would argue yes.

Art and philosophy help drive innovation. Our imaginations show us things that aren't possible and then we as a species find ways to make them possible. Would the world be a better place without the works of Jules Verne, Shakespeare, Bob Marley or DaVinci? These are people who shaped the world with their works.

You can say the world isn't any better with Transformers 2 in it; but if it helped just one person forget about a really awful thing going on in their life for a few hours, or it reminds somebody else of their first date with the love of their life, who are you to say it didn't help shape the future? Just look at what is going on around the world over a crappy youtube video.
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Old 09-13-2012, 07:40 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THX1311
you will not find one complaint about how much "Art " was Destroyed.


There are some who would say that art, in all its forms, is an intrinsic element of human existence and cannot be separated. Art has been made under the most horrific of circumstances and was made even before language was invented (though, to be fair, it's not fully known why ancient peoples felt compelled to create artworks). There are indeed stories of people who risked their lives in various wars to try to save great works from bombed or burning museums.
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Old 09-13-2012, 07:42 PM   #41
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About pricing, it's the nature of the business. Construction isn't any better.
http://www.bctd.org/Newsroom/Press-...Labor-Agre.aspx

I would bet far more construction companies go under each year than VFX studios.
 
Old 09-13-2012, 08:17 PM   #42
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The current world is built on centuries of hard work by billions of people from all walks of life in multiple fields. Its good and all saying that x,y,z helped design/innovate/create/inspire a,b,c, but in the end it's nothing more than a massive team effort.
 
Old 09-13-2012, 08:27 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clappy3D
Sorry to get all John Lennon on everyone, but imagine a world without the following:

No music to listen to, no books to read, no movies, no theatre, no photographers, no interior design, no industrial designers, no architects, no actors, no illustrators, no graphic designers, no galleries, etc etc.....

I know this includes mediums outside of visual art, but I see us all under the same creative umbrella. If humanity is around long enough, art will outlive capitalism, democracy, and dare I say it, most if not all of the current religions. As these things tend to change every few thousand years. Yet it is almost certain human beings will always want to express themselves creatively no matter what the politics de jour may look like.

So do we need art to survive? No. Would I want to live in a world without it. No thanks.

Sorry for further bringing this thread off-topic.

Cheers,
Matt


Are you reading the same thread as me? Because I'm not really seeing anyone who says that art has no value whatsoever.
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Old 09-13-2012, 08:40 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leigh
Are you reading the same thread as me? Because I'm not really seeing anyone who says that art has no value whatsoever.


I just forgot to quote the person I was addressing and should not have used the word "everyone".
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Old 09-14-2012, 03:53 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THX1311
If humanity is "Around long enough"
it will Deplete the planets resources with its current rate of consumption and the last thing on people minds will be art galleries and graphic design.

Get out of your ivory tower and review any testimonies from survivors of the nuclear disaster in Japan or anyone living through the Horror of the civil war in Syria ATM
you will not find one complaint about how much "Art " was Destroyed.


Cheers



Why are you completely ignoring technological evolution? We will most likely never come close to depleting planets resources. Sooner or later we will begin mining close by planets and the MASSIVE ASTEROIDS that are extremely abundant it resource material. It is a matter of time for such tech to be invented. Not to mention renewable resource.

I don't see why is art such a big issue, It has always been a part of humanity's history and it will continue to be so. It has contributed to the development of our species in more ways than it is possible to count. And of course it is a bad thing when art is not there or destroyed because that is a piece of history that is erased. I understand that you think that art is not an imminent necessity and I might tend to agree, but in the grand scheme of things it is something that we could not do without.

Last edited by Tamagoo : 09-14-2012 at 03:56 AM.
 
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