CGTalk > Main > General Discussion
Login register
Thread Closed share thread « Previous Thread | Next Thread »
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 09-05-2012, 02:37 AM   #46
ThE_JacO
MOBerator-X
 
ThE_JacO's Avatar
CGSociety Member
portfolio
Raffaele Fragapane
That Creature Dude
Animal Logic
Sydney, Australia
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 10,954
Quote:
Originally Posted by ower
Because the people that have their heart set on films or games turn their noses up at anything other than that.. and sometimes as adults we have to do things we don't want to.

It's better to have a job with income coming in while you use your skills and work on getting your dream job than doing nothing or working an unskilled labor job. Unless you have the benifit of having someone support you while you chase this dream job.

The point is that there are two sides of the story. For every person that got screwed by chasing a dream, there is one that got screwed for not doing it.

I don't think the "find a profitable niche" is bad advice, I said as much, but since it's the only side of that discussion that gets posted repeatedly, because those happy of having achieved what they set off to do are less likely to post about it, I thought it was time to offer the other perspective one should contemplate when making that decision.

It's not a matter of which one you should do, that's personal and highly circumstantial. It's a matter of remembering what your priorities are, and choose the best option in your pursuit of happyness and a rewarding life, which for some comes from safety and stability, at the expense of job satisfaction, for others comes from the opposite direction.

That's it. There's no right or wrong, just choices, and for every parent telling their kid that they should become a lawyer, you need an uncle reminding them that people DO become astronauts, even if not all of them, if they have the qualities and persistence to. I simply thought it was appropriate to remind those reading of this small detail in the onslaught of "find an alternative way to make a living CG" posts in GD.

You could also remind people who want to work in movies and games, that they might want to find a way other than CG to get into those, if their passion is movies and games. Just for the record, but that'd be OT, as this is, after all, CGTalk
__________________
"As an online CG discussion grows longer, the probability of the topic being shifted to subsidies approaches 1"

Free Maya Nodes
 
Old 09-05-2012, 03:22 PM   #47
RobertoOrtiz
[Forum Leader]
 
RobertoOrtiz's Avatar
CGTalk Forum Leader
portfolio
Roberto Ortiz
Illustrator/ Modeler
Washington DC, USA
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 32,025
Send a message via MSN to RobertoOrtiz
OK
any experience here with Art Cooperatives?

Quote"
An art cooperative is an organization owned by its members. When starting an art cooperative, find members with different styles of expression and media that will complement members, such as abstract, realism, pottery, photography and sculptures. The benefits for an artist to join a cooperative normally includes access to a studio, galleries, education resources and workshops.

Read more: How to Start an Art Cooperative | eHow.comhttp://www.ehow.com/how_2185169_start-art-cooperative.html#ixzz25br5FZTR
"


Quote:
Originally Posted by sentry66
I think you get out of a field what you put into it.

There are a lot of good CG careers CG people don't typically think of or aware of:

Scientific animation
Medical animation
Legal animation
Medical Legal animation
Industrial design animation

To help the conversation move along, here are the description of the Cg areas you described:

OK for those looking for information on other fields of CG:

Scientific visualization
(also spelled scientific visualisation) is an interdisciplinary branch of science according to Friendly (2008) "primarily concerned with the visualization of three-dimensional phenomena (architectural, meteorological, medical, biological, etc.), where the emphasis is on realistic renderings of volumes, surfaces, illumination sources, and so forth, perhaps with a dynamic (time) component".[2] It is also considered a branch of computer science that is a subset of computer graphics. The purpose of scientific visualization is to graphically illustrate scientific data to enable scientists to understand, illustrate, and glean insight from their data.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_visualization

Medical animation
A medical animation is a short educational film, usually based around a physiological or surgical topic, that is rendered using 3D computer graphics. While it may be intended for an array of audiences, the medical animation is most commonly utilized as an instructional tool for medical professionals or their patients.

Early medical animations were limited to basic wire-frame models because of low processor speed. However, rapid evolution in microprocessor design and computer memory has led to animations that are significantly more intricate.

The medical animation may be viewed as a standalone visualization, or in combination with other sensory input devices, such as head-mounted displays, stereoscopic lenses, haptic gloves, interactive workstations, or Cave Automatic Virtual Environments (CAVEs).

Legal animation (aka Forensic animation)
Forensic animation is a branch of forensic science in which audio-visual recreations of incidents or accidents are created to aid investigators. Examples include the use of computer animation, stills, and other audio visual aids. Application of computer animation in courtrooms today is becoming more popular.

The first use of computer animation in a U.S. criminal trial was in the 1991 Marin County, CA homicide trial of James Mitchell (of the porno-businessman Mitchell Brothers)[1], [2] The animation was created by crime scene analyst and pioneering forensic animation expert Alexander Jason[3] who produced the animation for the prosecution to explain the complex details of the shooting incident to the jury. It showed the positions of James Mitchell, Artie Mitchell (the victim), the bullet impact points, and the path taken by bullets as they entered Artie's body. The animation was admitted, over objection by the defense, and was used effectively to obtain a conviction. The use of the animation was upheld on appeal and the success of Alexander Jason's forensic animation led to its use in many other trials.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forensic_animation
__________________
LW FREE MODELS:FOR REAL Home Anatomy Thread
FXWARS
:Daily Sketch Forum:HCR Modeling
This message does not reflect the opinions of the US Government


Last edited by RobertoOrtiz : 09-05-2012 at 03:29 PM.
 
Old 09-05-2012, 04:18 PM   #48
tswalk
Expert
 
tswalk's Avatar
portfolio
Troy Walker
USA
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 717
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveWortley
We just struggle to find applicants with enough experience or skill. There are jobs out there for those that are good enough!

On a totally unrelated topic if you're a senior animator looking for work in London with generalist skills, Zbrushing etc then please get in touch via PM.


i get a little frustrated when i read things like this...

companies are always looking for people with more experience, where if the company grew their experience, the long term benefits for everyone would exceed the short-term value.
 
Old 09-05-2012, 04:27 PM   #49
cubiclegangster
Expert
portfolio
Neil Griffiths
Miami, United%2BStates
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 256
Send a message via MSN to cubiclegangster
Quote:
Originally Posted by tswalk
i get a little frustrated when i read things like this...

companies are always looking for people with more experience, where if the company grew their experience, the long term benefits for everyone would exceed the short-term value.


It's not about 'more experience', it's about being to hit the ground running and actually do the work. Every company i've been at has had serious trouble finding people who can actually do the job at a level beyond technical lackey.
 
Old 09-05-2012, 04:28 PM   #50
grantmoore3d
Geek Extraordinaire
 
grantmoore3d's Avatar
portfolio
Grant Moore
Creative Director
ComboMash Entertainment
Vancouver, Canada
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,281
I'd be really interested to hear from anyone who has participated in an art cooperative (thanks Roberto, now I know what to call it!). I've always been wanting to band together with several other individual freelancers and create a "studio" where we work together on contracts when needed, but are otherwise free to explore our own work. I think that would be a fun compromise for freelancers working alone, but who would like to work alongside others for the social aspects.
__________________
ComboMash Entertainment Inc
Website | Twitter | Facebook | IndieDB | PressKit
 
Old 09-05-2012, 05:39 PM   #51
XLNT-3d
Be Water My Friend
 
XLNT-3d's Avatar
portfolio
Jon Anderson
Creative that gets stuff done
Stevensville, USA
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 2,397
It was those early forensic animation pioneers that opened the door for me. I got in the field around 1995. We used to have some unique ways to getting animations accepted into court. It used to be a real fight. It's more acceptable now, but still a fight to get them into court. They have to have bullet proof accuracy and scientific basis many times.

I originally wanted to get into the entertainment field (BOSS Films, ILM, Disney). I picked a forensic animation company to hone my skills and accuracy, but never left the field. The money was good and the flexibility and lifestyle I could pursue worked out. I do regret not trying to at least make a run in California with all the big dogs. It still may happen at some point, but the past 17 years haven't been that bad. I've got 4 kids, still married to the same wife, owned some cars, houses, stock and even been a small partner in a multi-million dollar business (as an animator).

I always tell new graduates and the single fleet footed digital artists to chase their dreams early. Once life begins to occur, priorities change and some things just are not that important.

Of course working on cases for the Darwin Awards and runner ups is always fun and getting videos like this; http://www.cnn.com/video/?hpt=hp_c3...ake-tv-mylaketv is entertaining.
 
Old 09-05-2012, 07:54 PM   #52
Kev3D
Agent
 
Kev3D's Avatar
portfolio
Kevin Russell
3D Artist
Kevisual
London, GB
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,761
Send a message via MSN to Kev3D
Quote:
Originally Posted by tswalk
i get a little frustrated when i read things like this...

companies are always looking for people with more experience, where if the company grew their experience, the long term benefits for everyone would exceed the short-term value.


The implication I'm reading is that companies should hire un-experienced staff and 'grow' them, this being mutually beneficial to both parties. This certainly can work but if the person they've 'grown' leaves the company, they're going to need someone to come in and be able to hit the ground running.
__________________
3D Reel, Photography and Blog
 
Old 09-05-2012, 08:29 PM   #53
XLNT-3d
Be Water My Friend
 
XLNT-3d's Avatar
portfolio
Jon Anderson
Creative that gets stuff done
Stevensville, USA
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 2,397
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kev3D
The implication I'm reading is that companies should hire un-experienced staff and 'grow' them, this being mutually beneficial to both parties. This certainly can work but if the person they've 'grown' leaves the company, they're going to need someone to come in and be able to hit the ground running.


Ideally you have 3 types, the mentor artist (senior level) that never fails and can lead as well as pick up the slack and anyone that collapses under pressure, the mid-level artist that has a great work rate and is consistent and the rookie artist. The latter two are meant to be "grown" or develop into the next position level. The shape is a pyramid, more rookies at the bottom so the best can rise to the top. Plus creating depth is always important. The snag is having the cash flow to support that structure. So if cash flow is a problem, it dictates whether you hire a seasoned vet or take chances with the unproven college grad.

Currently, at my studio, I'm the vet and I have 3 rookies. However, they are learning and accelerating fast, so in the next 3-6 months, we'll probably start farming the high school for kids with talent and drive for future development (2-4 year). I would love to pick up a veteran or two and a few mid-level artists, but the workflow just isn't there right now, so my best option is to develop for future growth. However, if we use freelancers, they are always proven veterans as they are usually off-site and need to be able to work without supervision.

Last edited by XLNT-3d : 09-05-2012 at 08:38 PM.
 
Old 09-05-2012, 08:46 PM   #54
vfx
Lead TD
 
vfx's Avatar
portfolio
Dominic Alderson
Lead TD / Artist / Film Maker
United Kingdom
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,884
Quote:
Originally Posted by leigh
Except there's barely any work in London right now. I rather imagine the Soho shops that are going to be there will be recruiting for their Vancouver or Singapore offices.


Thats what I noticed at the VES job fair earlier this year but talk is that projects are kicking off more toward the end of the year in London - who knows what will happen though. Best of luck to all!
__________________
LinkedIN
VIMEO

- My thoughts are my own and should not be confused with anyone else's.
 
Old 09-05-2012, 09:11 PM   #55
AangtheAvatar
Banned
portfolio
Aang Airbender
Air Temple, USA
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 194
Quote:
I have talked to short filmmakers and the consensus seems to be that there is little money top be made out of the shorts market.


But, there is money to be made out of the IP development market.
Disney is the master of this field.

Develop IP that can be used in multiple media in multiple ways.


There are people who develop things for smaller crowds. Right now I know a few DJs making tons of money based on their fans but you will never really hear them on top 40 radio. They are not Lady Gaga or Katy Perry but do make good to descent money doing what they like.

There is no money in short films. I don't know why people bother outside of the creative merit, which is fine.

I'm still all about taking IP and going to digital "cinematic comics" and then move into games.
Perfect examples of this are the "Fantastic Flying Books" and "Bottom of the Ninth" One is a illustrative interactive book which really just boils down to 1 17 minute short but has been sold successfully on Ipad.

Bottom of the Ninth is an animated comic book that utilizes the power of the I devices and brings something new and it is not just crappy motion comics but full animation sequences that is interesting and fun.

I mean there are ways to be creative and hustle to make a living out of your art.
 
Old 09-06-2012, 12:01 AM   #56
ThE_JacO
MOBerator-X
 
ThE_JacO's Avatar
CGSociety Member
portfolio
Raffaele Fragapane
That Creature Dude
Animal Logic
Sydney, Australia
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 10,954
Quote:
Originally Posted by tswalk
i get a little frustrated when i read things like this...

companies are always looking for people with more experience, where if the company grew their experience, the long term benefits for everyone would exceed the short-term value.

It's not always that simple in all contexts.
More than once, fairly often in fact, people will leave soon after they acquired the experience because jumping ship is one of many ways to renegotiate. Some times without giving the original company even a chance to discuss terms, some other times because they're in a hurry or want a different type of project, or other times again because crap just happens.

When you factor in the leads and HoDs time it takes for some of those people to be brought up to par, and I mean to 0par, not making you any money, that strategy often times turns out into a loss.

Some companies do well at that, if you look at DNeg and the amount of leads in there who were runners four years before (and I suspect this has something to do with their ownership and management being fond of the model and respectful of humble people who're willing to slug it out from 0), it's clearly a model that they were able to work by.

Some other companies get burnt, and that's not for lack of trying.
You would also be surprised, I'm sure, at how quickly some indivduals can develop a sense of self-worth and entitlement that's well out of scale with their skills after just a few months of (well paid) internship.

It's not as clear cut as you make it. Here in Australia local talent is hugely important, politically, philosophically, and to hit numbers for grants and rebates, but very few places have managed to get something fruitful out of what you outline.
Animal Logic, with ground-up roto, comp and tracking free courses has had good results in some departments, for other departments it simply turned out impossible to act on it.

When you have deadlines and supes and leads that already spend more time juggling tasks and meetings than they should, because some times productions go that way, a single junior can either crack a back, or come in as complete dead weight, however cheap he might be, because induction is impossible.

You would also, I'm sure, be hugely surprised at how many completely unskilled people turn their nose up at internships, running, junior positions, or even downright free, no obbligation courses in a production environment, because they feel that the exit from that position is too late, or not up to what they think they are worth.

You might be a hard working, self motivated, perceptive and eager individual, and think everybody else is as well and this is a valid model. The reality is that thousands of assholes out there are spoiling it for you and giving companies a hard time.
__________________
"As an online CG discussion grows longer, the probability of the topic being shifted to subsidies approaches 1"

Free Maya Nodes
 
Old 09-06-2012, 01:14 AM   #57
Oddgit
synthetic photographer
portfolio
Robert Turner
Sacramento, USA
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 344
Send a message via AIM to Oddgit
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThE_JacO
It's not always that simple in all contexts.
More than once, fairly often in fact, people will leave soon after they acquired the experience because jumping ship is one of many ways to renegotiate. Some times without giving the original company even a chance to discuss terms, some other times because they're in a hurry or want a different type of project, or other times again because crap just happens.

When you factor in the leads and HoDs time it takes for some of those people to be brought up to par, and I mean to 0par, not making you any money, that strategy often times turns out into a loss.

Some companies do well at that, if you look at DNeg and the amount of leads in there who were runners four years before (and I suspect this has something to do with their ownership and management being fond of the model and respectful of humble people who're willing to slug it out from 0), it's clearly a model that they were able to work by.

Some other companies get burnt, and that's not for lack of trying.
You would also be surprised, I'm sure, at how quickly some indivduals can develop a sense of self-worth and entitlement that's well out of scale with their skills after just a few months of (well paid) internship.

It's not as clear cut as you make it. Here in Australia local talent is hugely important, politically, philosophically, and to hit numbers for grants and rebates, but very few places have managed to get something fruitful out of what you outline.
Animal Logic, with ground-up roto, comp and tracking free courses has had good results in some departments, for other departments it simply turned out impossible to act on it.

When you have deadlines and supes and leads that already spend more time juggling tasks and meetings than they should, because some times productions go that way, a single junior can either crack a back, or come in as complete dead weight, however cheap he might be, because induction is impossible.

You would also, I'm sure, be hugely surprised at how many completely unskilled people turn their nose up at internships, running, junior positions, or even downright free, no obbligation courses in a production environment, because they feel that the exit from that position is too late, or not up to what they think they are worth.

You might be a hard working, self motivated, perceptive and eager individual, and think everybody else is as well and this is a valid model. The reality is that thousands of assholes out there are spoiling it for you and giving companies a hard time.


That is unfortunate, even jobs i have not liked i always gave notice and what not, and jobs i liked i felt lucky to have. I couldn't imagine just leaving a company out of the blue, it seems like a pretty dodgy thing to do. I can understand why companies choose to hire people with experience over beginners if they tend to just get cocky and leave as soon as they can. Last in studio job i was just stoked to have a job, i didn't even want to leave but it was a short term thing, i would still be there if they kept me around. =D
__________________
I like to tell people my scars from my CTS surgery are actually stigmata scars.
 
Old 09-06-2012, 01:26 AM   #58
ThE_JacO
MOBerator-X
 
ThE_JacO's Avatar
CGSociety Member
portfolio
Raffaele Fragapane
That Creature Dude
Animal Logic
Sydney, Australia
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 10,954
Don't get me wrong by the way, I'm not implying it's the norm, and as I said I've seen it succeed in more than one instance. It is not unheard of though, or even uncommon, and a few episodes like that tend to, financially, offset many of the successful ones, which is why I was saying it's not so clear-cut to be universally a good idea, or a valid model on all fronts.
__________________
"As an online CG discussion grows longer, the probability of the topic being shifted to subsidies approaches 1"

Free Maya Nodes
 
Old 09-06-2012, 01:47 AM   #59
tswalk
Expert
 
tswalk's Avatar
portfolio
Troy Walker
USA
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 717
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kev3D
The implication I'm reading is that companies should hire un-experienced staff and 'grow' them, this being mutually beneficial to both parties. This certainly can work but if the person they've 'grown' leaves the company, they're going to need someone to come in and be able to hit the ground running.


This is true, i'm being (probably) overly judgmental and not intending too with my expression of frustration (and definitely NOT attempting to shake my finger at anyone).
 
Old 09-06-2012, 01:48 AM   #60
Tamagoo
Frequenter
portfolio
Nerijus
Reseda, United States Minor Outlying Islands
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by tswalk
i get a little frustrated when i read things like this...

companies are always looking for people with more experience, where if the company grew their experience, the long term benefits for everyone would exceed the short-term value.


I agree. I understand that you need experts, but investing time and effort to nurture someone new could only help you in the long run.
 
Thread Closed share thread


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
CGSociety
Society of Digital Artists
www.cgsociety.org

Powered by vBulletin
Copyright 2000 - 2006,
Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Minimize Ads
Forum Jump
Miscellaneous

All times are GMT. The time now is 01:57 PM.


Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.