CG Nature - Maya & Vray Proxies

Become a member of the CGSociety

Connect, Share, and Learn with our Large Growing CG Art Community. It's Free!

THREAD CLOSED
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 11 November 2011   #1
CG Nature - Maya & Vray Proxies

Hey guys,

I've been looking into getting a forest going in maya. Yes I am involved in the Maya Forest thread for ages. I just have other questions pertaining and thought this would be a better place.

Basically, Vue Xtream seems like a good option based on all their "technology" but it seems that very few people have that workflow going. Is it only used by Mattepainters? I've spoken to Vue people before but they seem very into the idea that the ENTIRE image is done in Vue. Which is cool but I am trying to work this into a CG pipeline. I need animation, mattes, etc etc.

What are my other options. Is SpeedTree the best? I am testing out the demo but I am tired of playing with evaluation copies trying to learn the software to find out if it is the best. I am looking for an answer like...this is the best for CG workflows as far as we know with Maya and Vray proxies. Production tested. Go with this.

Any other options?

Thanks
 
Old 11 November 2011   #2
I don't think you'll find much info on VRayProxy forests in Maya because VRay for Maya is still relatively new compared to established solutions. That aside, it's definitely a viable workflow, and similar things have been done with VRay in 3DS Max (just google image or youtube search VRay Scatter for examples).

Vue XStream seems like a good option, with good tools for introducing variation in the mix of trees. Any reason not to use it other than that it "is only used by mattepainters"?
__________________
This should take less than a few minutes.

Last edited by noouch : 11 November 2011 at 02:47 PM.
 
Old 11 November 2011   #3
It does seem like a great option but when posting online questions on workflow. It is then when you realize the whole one click and it sends it all to maya solution doesn't really work. I've heard about problems in the renders and the trees don't look that great. I just wonder who is right and wrong on this.
 
Old 11 November 2011   #4
There's a number of options depending on the requirements of the shot in question.

Vue - great for stills, useless for HD animation (though of course E-on would have you believe otherwise, and i'd like to see them prove me otherwise). Vue has a lot of nice tricks in the box, but the simple fact remains, in my experience it still takes 2 hours on a decent machine to render a single frame at HD to the point you eventually lose the noise, which has being a serious issue for vue until version 9.5 ( i haven't tried the latest version myself, so can't speak with the latest version) It's also worth noting, that E-on seem to credit Vue for a lot of work that has made very little use of Vue in production. So think twice when you see all these feature film pics with the Vue logo slapped over them. It's something i take personal issue with when i know artists that have worked on said shots and when i ask them how they managed to get Vue working at 4k with no noise in a production environment, they reply with; we didn't, Vue was just used for layout and painted over, or we rendered Vue to a few cards in the distant background :/

It seems speed tree is growing in popularity (forgive the pun it's been used quite a lot in production in recent years and definitely has the tools to come up with any design you can think of, but very expensive.

There's also a number of other tree generators, some free, just do a quick google search on 3d tree generator and you'll come up with a few leads.

You can also look through the evermotion library, they have some sweet high res trees.

To populate the environment, well that's another issue, again depends on the shot. Personally I like to use Vray Scatter / Proxies, it's simple to use and just works very quickly and does what it says on the can. You can also use MR proxies, but will be locked to the MR renderer.

Other options commonly used in film is to apply tree maps to cards with an alpha and just duplicate them countless times. The render times on this would be quicker in Nuke.

Hope that helps a little

D.

Last edited by everlite : 11 November 2011 at 01:05 AM.
 
Old 11 November 2011   #5
In Maya, you can use an Instancer object and a particle system to scatter V-Ray proxies around.

Best regards,
Vlado
 
Old 11 November 2011   #6
Just wondering why is everybody talking about Proxies when doing forrest and massive instancing. Proxies are almost useless if you don't have raytracing acceleration structure that supports massive instancing. You don't need proxies to populate scene with thousands of trees, you can use regular objects and still get almost same memory footprint, and it will be even faster to render. The only difference is that object can be flushed away from memory when you are using proxy, compared to regular geometry where you need to keep same object constantly in memory... for every instance in scene you just need new transformation matrix and that doesn't take a lot of ram.
 
Old 11 November 2011   #7
Echoing what Toni is saying, I think the most important thing you can do to manage render times is to have a couple different levels of detail for each plant, and use the leanest one you can get away with for a given shot. I've been doing some really dense jungles in Max lately and using SpeedTree for the plant modeling. One thing ST is great at is dialing a tree down to a certain polycount without radically changing its shape.

So far, Max's instancing has been enough to handle shots containing a couple thousand plants at 20-50,000 polys each. I tried some tests with MR proxies, but didn't see huge gains.
__________________
Brian "balistic" Prince
"tessellaters gonna tessellate"
digital art / hi-tech soul music
 
Old 11 November 2011   #8
Originally Posted by thev: In Maya, you can use an Instancer object and a particle system to scatter V-Ray proxies around.

Best regards,
Vlado

Awesome, now let's see the same thing work in PFlow
__________________
This should take less than a few minutes.
 
Old 11 November 2011   #9
I'd like to echo the point about Vue. I am running 8.5, so I can't vouch for the newest version. I did a forest fly over and rendered at 4k to scale down to 1080p trying to avoid the noise and it is still there, noticeably so.
__________________
The End
 
Old 11 November 2011   #10
Originally Posted by InTerceptoV: Just wondering why is everybody talking about Proxies when doing forrest and massive instancing. Proxies are almost useless if you don't have raytracing acceleration structure that supports massive instancing. You don't need proxies to populate scene with thousands of trees, you can use regular objects and still get almost same memory footprint, and it will be even faster to render. The only difference is that object can be flushed away from memory when you are using proxy, compared to regular geometry where you need to keep same object constantly in memory... for every instance in scene you just need new transformation matrix and that doesn't take a lot of ram.
This is true, you can do that with V-Ray and it works fine, and is even a bit faster than proxies for similar RAM usage. But for whatever reason, it has stuck into people's minds that proxies are the only way to do it... They seem to be used rather like a convenient way to store geometry assets.

Best regards,
Vlado
 
Old 11 November 2011   #11
For me personally using Vray scatter, i like the ability to manage a high number of proxies within a few tweaks, ie; scaling, rotating, distribution etc. Though to be honest i've never compared render times with a scene filled with proxies oppose to a scene filled with geo, i just assumed the proxie scene would render faster. So you think the render times would be just the same and in some cases quicker with geo? I guess if that's the case it might be worth looking into using a hair setup or particles setup with instances.

Dave
 
Old 11 November 2011   #12
Originally Posted by everlite: For me personally using Vray scatter, i like the ability to manage a high number of proxies within a few tweaks, ie; scaling, rotating, distribution etc. Though to be honest i've never compared render times with a scene filled with proxies oppose to a scene filled with geo, i just assumed the proxie scene would render faster. So you think the render times would be just the same and in some cases quicker with geo? I guess if that's the case it might be worth looking into using a hair setup or particles setup with instances.
Dave


It will be faster almost every time if you don't use proxies. My workflow is ... I create scene and I don't use proxies at all, but if I hit memory limit and know that my rendertime will suffer because of lack of memory, then I move to transforming-optimizing some elements in scene to proxies. It just doesn't make sense to create proxies if you don't have memory issues. Only other benefit I see is that you can get faster viewport feedback when using proxies, but then you can also use "show as box" or something to speed up viewport.
Plus, another benefit of not using proxies is that you always have direct access and flexibility to change instanced geometry in your scene, without going into whole process of remerging proxy into scene and saving it again.
 
Old 11 November 2011   #13
How do you transform large populations using that work flow? I mean, if the client says i want all the trees over there scaling up by 25% with a falloff, with proxies you could use a height map to control density, scaling etc. Adding to that, how do you position/distribute the trees in the first place? Do you use particle instances?

I'd really love to nail a good workflow with forests, because for all the benefits of using Vray scatter, it can be a little buggy sometimes.

Thanks
Dave.
 
Old 11 November 2011   #14
I am using Forrestpack in most cases, I think it is the most advanced scattering tool available. But even if you are using VRay scatter I think you don't need to use proxies, just use pure geometry.
 
Old 11 November 2011   #15
Thanks Toni, just looking over the product website and it seems you get a lot more control with Forest Pack. I'll download the lite version and play around with a few scenes.

Another question if i may; how do you generate your individual trees? Do you use Speed Tree, Onyx or any other software? I have a few libraries from Evermotion that have some nice high res trees, around 50k but very high render times, around 20mins per frame with low population, i try to pro optimise them a little, but they quickly fall apart. I use Onyx for the trade off with around 10 mins per frame (720p), but the quality is a noticeably lower. Still trying to find the right balance
 
Thread Closed share thread



Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
CGSociety
Society of Digital Artists
www.cgsociety.org

Powered by vBulletin
Copyright 2000 - 2006,
Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Minimize Ads
Forum Jump
Miscellaneous

All times are GMT. The time now is 04:53 PM.


Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.