Report: Superman/Batman Movie Planned

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  08 August 2013
Originally Posted by CGIPadawan: That's another point: Comic Book Death is Meaningless.


And thats been my point precisely! This is a new construct. Before 1985, in the DC universe at least, this was a rare occurence.
 
  08 August 2013
Originally Posted by CGIPadawan: That's another point: Comic Book Death is Meaningless.

My personal view is you look at it the way you'd look at old Greek myths, or the way some people even look at history. It's all just material. It's all there to be used.


One minor quibble-in the case of Achilles or Hercules they do die (although they end up as bored spirits or divinities) . Their stories have conclusions. With comic book characters I dont think its possible unless the original creator does it.

They killed Zorro in a movie but wouldnt count as official.
 
  08 August 2013
Originally Posted by JoeyP88: And thats been my point precisely! This is a new construct. Before 1985, in the DC universe at least, this was a rare occurence.


How about that time they shot Captain America in Civil War?
But look! There he is on screen and in print leading the Avengers!

Originally Posted by JoeyP88: The only way to fix it is to have Superman wake up in a nefarious situation that Brainiac put him in where he's been in a coma for 25 years and none what DC wrote in that time was ever real. And thats not acceptable either.


No, see that's the thing, one writer can do this. And then the next ones will ignore it or borrow from it if they want to "use" it.

It doesn't matter anymore what happens in any of these things.

Christopher Nolan's success with Batman was not down to anything more than his ability to create a "Hope/Faith-in-Humanity/Despair-in-Society" parable and in doing that simply cherry-picked whatever would work from Tim Burton, Frank Miller, militarization of sci-fi technology, psychiatric profiling of criminals, etc.

He went from creating his own characters (eg: Rachel Dawes), changing the roles and positions of characters (eg: Lucius Fox is now the "detective/inventor/scientist" on the Batman team), to completely recreating scenes from the comic books (eg: Batman's reappearance complete with policeman quips for TDKR taken from the comic book of the same name by Frank Miller).

For what it's worth if you kill Achilles in say "Troy", and then you do an entire sequel of Brad-Pitt-Achilles, shirtless, in his prime, fighting monsters in Hell.. .that is still fair game and all the more means "Death is Meaningless".

Might even be a bigger hit than "Troy".
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Last edited by CGIPadawan : 08 August 2013 at 02:58 AM.
 
  08 August 2013
Originally Posted by CGIPadawan: For what it's worth if you kill Achilles in say "Troy", and then you do an entire sequel of Brad-Pitt-Achilles, shirtless, in his prime, fighting monsters in Hell.. .that is still fair game and all the more means "Death is Meaningless".


Well they removed pretty much all the supernatural aspects from the story in the movie Troy so its unlikely they would go that route in a sequel unless they wanted to throw away all coherence.


In the source material Achilles dies. Its official since its based on ancient texts of a particular culture and referenced right down the line through Shakespeare to the expression "Achilles heel."

Doesnt matter what the movies do--the official story will always be Achilles is killed and becomes a shade in the underworld. Whether he's happy or bored or fighting monsters (never heard that one) is subject to infinite interpretation but he isnt back walking the earth following some stint in the after life.

It is meaningless in most comics unless a Watchmen sequel by Moore and Gibbons resurrects Rorschach.

I suppose Dr Manhatten may have the power to bring him back any time so perhaps even that death is meaningless.

But not for Achilles. Very few examples of mortals granted immortality and he wasnt one of them. And those that were did not hang out on Earth according to the legends. There's always a separation between mortality and immortality because death is not meaningless in classical literature.
 
  08 August 2013
Originally Posted by CGIPadawan: How about that time they shot Captain America in Civil War?
But look! There he is on screen and in print leading the Avengers!

By that time, 2007, Marvel fans already knew how meaningless death was. Even though they pushed Bucky Cap pretty hard, it wasn't "if" Steve was going to come back, but "when". I think that fans had enough confidence in writer Ed Brubaker to ride it out, hoping that the story being told was bigger than the death gimmick.

The tipping point in the Marvel Universe, where death lost its permanence, was in 1986 when writer/artist Bob Layton resurrected Jean Grey so that he could reunite the 5 original X-Men for "X-Factor". Since then, death has become a joke. Pretty much everybody is fair game. Most of the time, it's a gimmick that cheapens the original death stories.

Off the top of my head, these are just a few characters who've died and come back, even for a short time...

Captain America. Iron Man. Thing. Vision. Jean Grey. Cyclops. Nightcrawler. Wolverine. Elektra. Colossus. Professor X. Blink. Cypher. Spider-Man. Human Torch. Ant-Man. Bucky. Aunt May. Uncle Ben. Gwen Stacy. Norman Osborn. Harry Osborn. Legion. Cable. Dracula. Magik. Magneto. Emma Frost. Thor. Sentry. Banshee. Daken. Loki. Warlock. Adam Warlock. Drax. Captain Marvel. Madelyn Pryor. Sabertooth. Destiny. Mysterio. Kraven. Graydon Creed. Shadow King. Odin. Hobgoblin. Man Thing. Spider-Woman. Red Skull. Magus I. Magus II. Multiple Man. M. Guido. Hitler. X-Man. Havok. The Reavers. The Ancient One. The Hellions. Ultron. Jocasta. Wasp. Punisher. Nimrod. Phoenix. Cannonball. Beyonder. Molecule Man. Mikhail Rasputin. Jamie Braddock. Sublime. Cassandra Nova. Scarlet Witch's kids. Ani-Mator. Galactus. Mantis. Guardian. Namorita. AND.... Death (Oh, the irony.)

Those are literally just the ones who spring to mind. I'm probably forgetting tons. Of those I did remember, some have died multiple times. Since `86 no character stays dead for too long. They don't always stay alive for too longer either (eg. Uncle Ben), but there's no character too sacred to pull this stunt on.

Just recently, Marvel killed off Spider-Man and had Doc Ock replace him. (Mind swap.) Peter died in Ock's failing body. Ock has since gone on to become the "Superior Spider-Man". Mavel has claimed that it's a permanent deal, but not one fan realistically expects it to last; not with a new Spider-Man movie right around the corner.

I like what one Avengers writer did a few years back. They used Black Widow as a mouthpiece to explain that these characters all wish that death were a permanent thing. Instead, to those living in their little world, the constant cycle of death & rebirth is more of a curse. There's an emotional price to be paid when the permanence of death is removed, especially when nobody knows if their loved ones will stay dead. I sort of like that spin. At least it acknowledges the absurdity of it all. (Marvel also went meta with the character Mr. Immortal, who can't die but desperately wants to.)

Being more of a Marvel fan than a DC one, I can't say how often they do it. However, their undying love for continuity reboots is like the ultimate giant middle finger to the whole concept of death.

I'm not totally bothered by the death/rebirth thing as long as it serves a bigger, better story. However, most of the time, it's just a terrible shock tactic. Really. How many people expected Batman or Superman to stay dead? I was frankly pretty surprised that DC kept both Green Lantern (Jordan) & Flash (Allen) dead for a period of ~20 years. Marvel wouldn't even last half that long.


Quote: For what it's worth if you kill Achilles in say "Troy", and then you do an entire sequel of Brad-Pitt-Achilles, shirtless, in his prime, fighting monsters in Hell.. .that is still fair game

Definitely. Starz did that with "Spartacus", resurrecting a bunch of dead characters for a prequel season. That didn't feel like a cheat. When they pretty much ignored what should've been a fatal blow to Lucy Lawless' character from one season to the next, that didn't sit well with me. I loved her character, but the improbable escape from death cheapened the previous season's closer.

Honestly, there are a bunch of tired comic book cliches & bad habits that need to be retired. I could probably come up with a few dozen myself, but here's a good thread on the topic. Some are just spot on. http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...-in-comics.html What amazes me about Nolan's Batman is that he can simultaneously break free from some of those trappings, quite intelligently so at that, but then falls head first into other types of tired schtick pretty easily. I'd say that it's a head scratcher, but you can almost always smell Hollywood "notes".
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Last edited by cookepuss : 08 August 2013 at 07:27 AM.
 
  08 August 2013
@Kelgy: OK, I got that bit about "Perma-Death in the Old Days". It's just that Pop Culture or fandoms didn't exist back then. I think it would be funny (or considered a big failure) in the old days to tell Homer "Listen, we want to see if you can write an Achilles spin-off.. you know.. from when after he became a Shade?" :P

Originally Posted by cookepuss: Honestly, there are a bunch of tired comic book cliches & bad habits that need to be retired. I could probably come up with a few dozen myself, but here's a good thread on the topic. Some are just spot on. http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...-in-comics.html What amazes me about Nolan's Batman is that he can simultaneously break free from some of those trappings, quite intelligently so at that, but then falls head first into other types of tired schtick pretty easily. I'd say that it's a head scratcher, but you can almost always smell Hollywood "notes".


The answer is that Nolan's use is (usually) disciplined. He has a certain thesis to push forward so you tend to see less stuff done simply for their own sake, but at the same time you see ridiculous stuff if it supports his need for something to happen within X amount of time.

But that's really the point... that basically you can look at all the possibilities of something like Batman (and there are really too many... from Jason Todd, to Joker snapping his own neck, The Riddler as a double-dealing informant...... etc etc.)... there's everything under the sun.. and that's just one label.

Fox benefits from the same thing for X-Men as you listed out.... they can wipe out everybody and bring them all back.... they can use any number of existing relationships/characters... mix two books to make one script....

I'm more surprised that reading so much of the material (and seeing all the inconsistency) hasn't made comic book readers more tolerant to abritrary builds for films, TV, games, and books. :P

Not saying we have to tolerate terrible stories for these things or that they don't matter in that way. But that... in much the same way Hercules can be done X number of ways.... (as Dwayne Johnson will soon prove to you all!) Batman can be X number of ways also.

P.S.: Wait! There was a BUCKY Cap? Didn't Bucky die like in... .World War 2?!? lol.
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Last edited by CGIPadawan : 08 August 2013 at 08:14 AM.
 
  08 August 2013
Originally Posted by cookepuss:
Being more of a Marvel fan than a DC one, I can't say how often they do it. However, their undying love for continuity reboots is like the ultimate giant middle finger to the whole concept of death.



So eloquently put.
 
  08 August 2013
Originally Posted by CGIPadawan:
I'm more surprised that reading so much of the material (and seeing all the inconsistency) hasn't made comic book readers more tolerant to abritrary builds for films, TV, games, and books. :P



The problem is that the movies just make it more inconsistent. Superman: The Movie(78) is a good example. The Batman movies from 84 to present are all over the place. My issue is not with the material. My issue is with the people making the material. They've soddied up the medium with so much sensationalism that no movie can fix this. And even if it did its not a replacement its a novelty. I'm just as critical of the movies as I am the chronicles however. I'm ecstatic to see a filmmaker actually try to adhere to canon in a positive way. In the DC universe Man of Steel, Green Lantern, and Batman Begins are about the only DC films that even got close.
 
  08 August 2013
In my opinion, American Super-hero comics are a train that you eventually should get off of. My prime reading years were 10-24, and then I read Wizard for another 5 years, just to make sure...yep, I don't want to read those comics anymore.

In my opinion, there is a strong adolescent appeal clearly, but as you get older and see one too many clones/rebirth/alternate future's daughter/Alternate future's son (x2) of Jean Grey...well..it is dumb. It is storytelling that I am grateful for at certain points of my personal development, but as I became older and could view a broader swath of the material and "continuity" I realized it wasn't for me.

I think Battle Angel Alita was the nail in the coffin for me. It was a simple tight story following a single character that changed, and the world around her changed, and there were time jumps... People were reborn, but only in a solar system spanning...spoilers, I won't go into it but I remember finding out the "Secret of Tiphares", walking down the street, out of the comic shop and just dropping my jaw and it is, to this day such a great dramatic moment...it made sense.

This was 94ish, Marvel would or had just gone bankrupt, the anime explosion would soon happen, it made sense to me.

Just getting off the train and enjoying these movies as nostalgia works for me.
 
  08 August 2013
Originally Posted by Stankluv: In my opinion, American Super-hero comics are a train that you eventually should get off of. My prime reading years were 10-24, and then I read Wizard for another 5 years, just to make sure...yep, I don't want to read those comics anymore.

In my opinion, there is a strong adolescent appeal clearly, but as you get older and see one too many clones/rebirth/alternate future's daughter/Alternate future's son (x2) of Jean Grey...well..it is dumb. It is storytelling that I am grateful for at certain points of my personal development, but as I became older and could view a broader swath of the material and "continuity" I realized it wasn't for me.


I got into Western comics VERY late, but also noticed the "hold" over me wasn't for very long also. The funny thing is that there are small bits and pieces I still like, mostly small "gimmicks" here and there for amusement and the artwork (on occasion). But the truth is they rely on a kind of arbitrary storytelling that goes on and on and on and on.

In many ways the quality of plot progression is not unlike the kind found in modern day Pro-Wrestling with Face turns, Heel turns, Big Name characters forming stables, outrageous costumes, staredowns, rattling out one-liners, feats of strength, exaggerated posturing.

It can be just as fun... if you don't take it that seriously.
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  08 August 2013
Originally Posted by Stankluv: In my opinion, American Super-hero comics are a train that you eventually should get off of.


I stopped getting Marvel by the early 90s and was buying Dark Horse movie comics instead. I kept track of comics news for another couple of years but think I gave up on it all by the mid 90s.
Later I heard from people who kept at it longer than me and the crazy storylines (Spider-man was a clone etc). And since then Marvel Zombies, Marvel and DC, Marvel vs DC, Marvel combined with DC...

Its like a soap opera but with no law of physics..
I occasionally buy Art of books (Alex Ross) but have bypassed the comics themselves.
 
  08 August 2013
PLEASE CLOSE THIS THREAD, it is turning into a support group for former readers of American Comic Books.
 
  09 September 2013
Originally Posted by CGIPadawan: @Kelgy: OK, I got that bit about "Perma-Death in the Old Days". It's just that Pop Culture or fandoms didn't exist back then. I think it would be funny (or considered a big failure) in the old days to tell Homer "Listen, we want to see if you can write an Achilles spin-off.. you know.. from when after he became a Shade?" :P

Right... luckily his publisher signed him on for an Odysseus spin-off instead.
 
  09 September 2013
Originally Posted by lironmiron: Right... luckily his publisher signed him on for an Odysseus spin-off instead.


Yeah I know right? Guess that one went down a lot like Deadpool over there.... Scene stealing supporting character has fans clamoring for a spin-off.
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  09 September 2013
The attitude towards the characters in the poems was probably different from how a modern audience responds to regular commercial fiction given the historical and religious significance of the poetry and characters for that culture.

I have read that Achilles had qualities that would be considered a negative for an ancient Greek audience (lack of emotional control) even though he represents their side (and the foreign Trojan side is given just as much or even more sympathy in the poem).


Some of the creative embellishments foreshadow the kind in comics though. Like the Cyclops who Odysseus blinds in the Odyssey shows up in the Aeneid written centuries later, establishing that Aeneas arrives at the same island a few months after Odysseus.

But back to comics--I had forgotten that Stan Lee has continued to write Spider-man for decades--in the newspaper strip.
 
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