SPOTLIGHT: BEST of 3d Sculpting Workshop - Old Age

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Old 10 October 2007   #31
Originally Posted by Carnildo: I think at some point we all have to step back and ask if we are adding detail for detail's sake, or are we using deliberate, well-considered artistic judgement to effectively communicate the intended result.

I challenge you to tell me why lots of wrinkles and pores indicate "quality". Are you responding to the "artists" facility with tools, or are you applauding the quality of the images design.?

I challenge the artists to exlpain their intent. Is it to create images of hellishly disfigured people or are you simply trying to make them look "real"? If it is the former, I would judge your effort successful. If it is the later however, I would have to say you have failed utterly, that you have confused infinite detail with realism.


Hence the name of the workshop...Confused? Ah, 1st post...Afraid? No matter what, thanks for the laugh.
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Old 10 October 2007   #32
Oh, come on, Carnildo!! We are all just trying to get together and learn a few things.. not to prove a point, as you think we are.... And "hellishly disfigured" is just your point of view. Where you see disfigurement, I see beauty!... and I see the sincere efforts of an artist who is trying to depict with his/her strokes something as deep and solemn as the idea of oldage. You may not quite understand it or see it in such a light since you chose not to participate and share in the joy, but to sneer.
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Last edited by anandpg : 10 October 2007 at 08:52 AM.
 
Old 10 October 2007   #33
Originally Posted by Carnildo: I think at some point we all have to step back and ask if we are adding detail for detail's sake, or are we using deliberate, well-considered artistic judgement to effectively communicate the intended result.

I challenge you to tell me why lots of wrinkles and pores indicate "quality". Are you responding to the "artists" facility with tools, or are you applauding the quality of the images design.?

I challenge the artists to exlpain their intent. Is it to create images of hellishly disfigured people or are you simply trying to make them look "real"? If it is the former, I would judge your effort successful. If it is the later however, I would have to say you have failed utterly, that you have confused infinite detail with realism.



get a life

is it realisme i wanted? No! Is it detail i proceeded? No!
If we wanted images we would have just find the right face and took a freakin picture.
I haven't been doing this long so you gotta start somewhere. So lighten up
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Old 10 October 2007   #34
wow great work guys. amazing sculptures!!!
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Old 10 October 2007   #35
You are all correct about me not getting it. I did in fact miss the point of the exercise. I apologize if anyone was offended by my comments. However, rejecting criticism won't get you very far as far as your education is concerned. A mutual admiration society serves no purpose. If you have any intention of doing this sort of work professionaly, it might do you all some good to give and recieve constuctive criticism. I didn't come out here to troll you. I did however ask what the intent of the exercise was and asked if you felt you were successful. My choice of words however could have been more neutral.

In my professional life, I see zbrush abuse on a daily basis and I fear that ultra-detailed work of this sort is being held up as an example of "quality". That detail in and of itself is becoming the accepted hallmark of quality while things like design, form, posture and all the other design elements that make up a figure (or head) are given little attention or buried beneath absurd amounts of texture which do not support the underlying structure.

This thread has a life of it's own outside of your workshop, it is being passed around as an example of quality work. It's not your fault that it has escaped it's context, but I felt the need to address the results from the context in which I encountered it. There is some very impressive technical skill on display here, but I still question the sophistication of this solution to depicting old age. There is a tidal-wave like trend at the moment to noodling the bejeezus out of every model that comes your way which results in either an overload of detail (if everything is important, nothing is important) or worse, a complete disregard for the underlying design.

That said, I would still challenge you all to take a step back and ask yourself if you are making careful design choices about depicting age or are you adding wrinkles and pores until there is simply no room left for another one? Are wrinkles, pores and sagging flesh the only way to portray age? How does thin skin wrinkle differently than plumper skin? What causes wrinkles, is it gravity? expression? Beyond the simple physical appearance of wrinkles et al, can you more effectively project your intent by emphasizing some areas while underplaying others?

For my part, the most successful works on display here were the ones that showed restraint and an tasteful hierarchy of detail. The works of Oliveira and Pavlov stand out in particular.

I apololgize to those who took offense at my well-intended, but perhaps impolitic criticism.
 
Old 10 October 2007   #36
Originally Posted by Carnildo: I think at some point we all have to step back and ask if we are adding detail for detail's sake, or are we using deliberate, well-considered artistic judgement to effectively communicate the intended result.


I can certaily see your point but how do you know the artists didn't use deliberate judgement?

And like others have said - it's a workshop, the purpose of which is to learn and work on the technique. Also sculpting old age does involve pores and wrinkles - examine closely any photo of an old person and you'll be surprised how much of both there is in it...
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Old 10 October 2007   #37
Originally Posted by Intervain: Also sculpting old age does involve pores and wrinkles - examine closely any photo of an old person and you'll be surprised how much of both there is in it...


Agreed





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Old 10 October 2007   #38
Originally Posted by Carnildo: However, rejecting criticism won't get you very far as far as your education is concerned. A mutual admiration society serves no purpose. If you have any intention of doing this sort of work professionaly, it might do you all some good to give and recieve constuctive criticism.


This was in no way a rejection of criticism and saying this it tells me, and please don´t take this as a personal attack (just in case I better mention this huh...) that you still don´t fully see the point (even though you say you could have been more neutral). It´s the fact of topic.
It´s like somebody is posting a modeling reel and you criticise the texturing work shown. It is absolutely irrelevant to the topic. So if you speak of constructive critcism, this would have been crits about problematic areas concerning the modeling resp. sculpting a digitally elderly character and NOT if this is about quality or not.

You screwed the topic, ok, that´s fine and the world is still the same. Saying so would have been enough but your additional comments that other people pass this thread around and saying it´s about quality or that people are not open for criticism or even that they won´t get a job in the industry because you missed the point is absolutely off again! and irrelevant to the works presented here, so please do not throw this ball at the guys that participated in the workshop and simply stay to the topic, because that´s what we wanna talk about here.

Peace.
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Old 10 October 2007   #39
hey great everybody. I like these models
heh I'm my old man is here, I havn't expected this, he's not done, U know school is timeeating .
 
Old 10 October 2007   #40
wow great show, wow wow
 
Old 10 October 2007   #41
I want to point out also a lot of the highlighted models are from industry professionals, so I'm sure they can take constructive criticism. ;-)
I am not sure which one are hellish disfigurements though. They all seem to be pretty accurate.

Last edited by Womball : 10 October 2007 at 05:20 PM.
 
Old 10 October 2007   #42
Originally Posted by Carnildo: ...I apologize if anyone was offended by my comments...

Carnildo, it is not that criticism is rejected out of hand here, but I think that as with anything, one's personal opinions are taken more seriously by practitioners of the trade. Had you participated in the Workshop to show how it is "really" done, as opposed to the artists here who did choose to participate, I believe that your comments might be taken more seriously. As it is, your work is not available for people to use as a guiding light in the midst of these experienced artists' "confusion". Criticism is not in and of itself a bad thing at all - but to criticize the judgement and artistic decisions of experienced artists without your own superior work on display will not, I think, be taken very seriously.

I think that your point about detail only for details' sake is a valid one. However I think that a lot of artists here were also using the Workshop as an exercise in using ZBrush the tool. Creating detail in an exercise is part of the point of the Workshop - to gain experience using the tools - the broader artistic goal of sublimating detail to design is perhaps a larger goal of artistic practice, but the purpose of the Workshop was to embrace artists of all levels and to allow everyone to improve their skill, be it artistic or technical. As such, I think that in the future you might simply be more tactful in your giving of criticism. It's all about tone.
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Last edited by Rebeccak : 10 October 2007 at 05:45 PM.
 
Old 10 October 2007   #43
funny that you've said that Alex's work in your opinion is among the restrained ones - I would say it consists of very many wrinkles and pores - to a great effect as well!

have to agree with Rebeccak about the participation or lack therof and expressing opinions. Most of the artists who did participate used references we have all seen and as Womball put it - their models are pretty accurate
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Old 10 October 2007   #44
Hi ...Carnildo ...

I have to totally agree with your point of view on an artistic level...
I think that every new technoligy creates it's own set of problems, that are in time overcome.
Overkill is just part of the process of evolution that occurres in the developement of any new art form..
It seems to be human nature to push things to their limit, that is until reason sets in.
DETAILS IN THIS CASE,.....
Another case and perhaps a better example, being the end result of this overkill, is the MOVIES being made as of lately.
That last STAR WARS, KING KONG ...ECT. ECT. ECT. All prime examples of OVERKILL .....EFFECT, WITHOUT SUBTANCE.

On the other hand, I have to agree with those who take things to the limit, and sometimes over the limit.
That is the only way that limits can be learned, after it is all said and done.

It was good to have your opinion voiced in here, ..I for one, and am probably the only one it would seem in this case find it totally refreshing, and a relief to know that I am not standing alone in my feelings about the overkill with the delails, and the replacement of effect/detail over subtance. in ART....3d in this case

In the end, I guess it just boils down to the fact that some people like their lillies guilded, and some don't..and the power/money that drives an industry ...into the dirt sometimes, will always have the final word, whether it be artistic or not
Anyway a good way to fight for your artictic right and views, is to participate....HOPE TO SEE YOU IN THE NEXT WORK SHOP...
If there is going to be a next one that is...I hope there will be more, because I learned a whole lot in this last one, and really enjoyed the experiance of working together with such GREAT TALENTED, AND GIFTED ARTIST...It was A GREAT PLEASURE, EXPERIANCE, AND MEMORY, FOR MY SELF, AND FOR MY ..SPIRIT...
TAKE CARE
Glenn
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Old 10 October 2007   #45
Carnildo,

Art is subjective, opinions are subjective, life is subjective. An image can communicate in different ways and not everybody will be pleased, as yourself.

I just agree with Rebecca. It's hard to respect the opinion of someone that just registered in this website to post strong "personal" opinions about how bad the models posted here are, talking down the work of the people here that participated to learn, not to win a challenge or anything like that. Would be easier to respect your opinion by seeing your work posted in the workshop, as everybody did. Most of the people use this website to show their work, as we are doing. Nobody is anonymous here. Most of us have a CGPortfolio or at least a link to our website, where you will find more examples of our work, if this matter at all. Unfortunately, this is not your case just yet and I think it's a little unfair to read all your wise words without a equally wise work (or text) to back you up. If anyone here have to prove something, this person is you, not us, mere students.

Some of us already work in the industry, if you didn't noticed and to take the work posted in a simple workshop as the same as the work done for film, games, commercials, just shows how your post fail. As someone that already work in the industry, just like yourself, I'm the one challenging you to show us who you are. To complete your profile, with a real name, with a link to your website or anything that can tell us something about you and your work.

On a side note, It's funny that you mentioned that you're not here to troll, since no one called you such name...

Cheers,
-Kris
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