CGTalk > Software > Maxon Cinema 4D
Login register
Thread Closed share thread « Previous Thread | Next Thread »  
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 06-13-2013, 08:09 PM   #1
firefly9000
New Member
portfolio
Sor H
US
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 22
Cool C4D & Renderman (Cineman)

Anybody have any experience getting Renderman Studio 4 to work with C4D? If I point it to the folder containing the renderman.exe file it does not see it because it looks for prman.exe...
 
Old 06-20-2013, 02:11 PM   #2
ilay
Lord of the posts
Ilay
Engineer
Kazakhstan
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,062
I think you will move or are moving alone with prman. Nobody uses it. Vray is core. Good luck.

P.s. if you want - need to write own exporter, helpers or vrenderer, most things of cineman are wrong or broken
 
Old 06-23-2013, 02:32 AM   #3
firefly9000
New Member
portfolio
Sor H
US
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 22
Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilay
I think you will move or are moving alone with prman. Nobody uses it. Vray is core. Good luck.

P.s. if you want - need to write own exporter, helpers or vrenderer, most things of cineman are wrong or broken


Thanks but why do you say that? I have a trial of Renderman and the Server version renders perfectly in C4D - I also tried 3Delight which worked fine. I'm not sure what you mean when you say "Vray is core" - core of what?
 
Old 06-23-2013, 03:37 AM   #4
LucentDreams
lover of gophers
 
LucentDreams's Avatar
CGSociety Member
portfolio
Kai Pedersen
Lighting Lead
Double Negative
Vancouver, Canada
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 10,374
its doesn't work with renderman studio it only works with Renderman Server.

Not entirely sure what Ilay's post meant other than that he's clearly a vray fanboy, but he is right that the cineman connection is seriously out of date sadly and not an ideal solution especially for latest prman. Not sure how it is with 3delight.
__________________
Quote:
"Until you do what you believe in, how do you know whether you believe in it or not?" -Leo Tolstoy
Kai Pedersen
 
Old 06-23-2013, 05:54 PM   #5
ilay
Lord of the posts
Ilay
Engineer
Kazakhstan
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,062
Hello to Kai Sor
Kai, you are not right - i'm not fan of vray(previously was, then final-renderer, f~r is dead...). I'm keeping interest at c4d's module(physical/ar3).
Sor, i point to vray, that becomes industry standard(looking at different pipelines, which appear with making-off's).

What are using prman server of v.17 or v.18-beta? My friend tested both, he had negative results.
I have sitex air, same situation.
/// off-top // Please don't say, that air is not renderman-complient, current prman is same ray-traced and trying to be physically corrected to closer as Arnold(pt adding).
I don't know why somebody downs air...
 
Old 06-26-2013, 02:26 PM   #6
ilay
Lord of the posts
Ilay
Engineer
Kazakhstan
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,062
Sor, have you prman 18? Cineman should work with it
18 was released and public docs are http://renderman.pixar.com/resource...notes-18.0.html
 
Old 06-26-2013, 05:48 PM   #7
firefly9000
New Member
portfolio
Sor H
US
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilay
Sor, have you prman 18? Cineman should work with it
18 was released and public docs are http://renderman.pixar.com/resource...notes-18.0.html


Hi - Well, I have Studio and that one has just the renderman.exe file, no prman.exe... Although I have a gut feeling that they're pretty similar because it's the file that is called for rendering, same as prman.exe... It's just that C4D does NOT allow you to specify which file it should look for... so it only looks for prman.exe... renderman.exe it does not see (or doesn't want to see)
 
Old 06-26-2013, 06:20 PM   #8
ilay
Lord of the posts
Ilay
Engineer
Kazakhstan
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,062
Studio is for maya, that's all. Need a server
 
Old 06-27-2013, 04:06 AM   #9
FantaBurky
Lord of the posts
Ask Ask
Greece
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 654
I must be missing something huge, cause I don't get Cineman at all! I tried it with 3delight and it just doesn't make any sense whatsoever. The few options available in render settings is hardly enough for someone like me to make use of.

I suppose it's all down to the so called .rib files. Which means rendering is suddenly about scripting, rather than playing with lights, cameras and materials. I seriously don't understand how, in 2013!!, this renderer hasn't even got a simple interface to control basic stuff. What's wrong with trying to speed up the process by adding a few options you see in every other renderer
 
Old 06-28-2013, 04:48 AM   #10
LucentDreams
lover of gophers
 
LucentDreams's Avatar
CGSociety Member
portfolio
Kai Pedersen
Lighting Lead
Double Negative
Vancouver, Canada
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 10,374
Quote:
Originally Posted by FantaBurky
I must be missing something huge, cause I don't get Cineman at all! I tried it with 3delight and it just doesn't make any sense whatsoever. The few options available in render settings is hardly enough for someone like me to make use of.

I suppose it's all down to the so called .rib files. Which means rendering is suddenly about scripting, rather than playing with lights, cameras and materials. I seriously don't understand how, in 2013!!, this renderer hasn't even got a simple interface to control basic stuff. What's wrong with trying to speed up the process by adding a few options you see in every other renderer


That is why Renderman requires render TD's and not just lighters.
__________________
Quote:
"Until you do what you believe in, how do you know whether you believe in it or not?" -Leo Tolstoy
Kai Pedersen
 
Old 06-28-2013, 06:46 AM   #11
FantaBurky
Lord of the posts
Ask Ask
Greece
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 654
Yea, well it's great that render TD's can still have a job in their field with these dinosaur engines. But, come on. There's no reason why a renderer, in 2013, can't have more everyday options/buttons/actions available for the average user through a simple interface. I can agree that leaving the .rib option is probably a great idea, since it most likely enables the users (if the user is a TD) to do much more than a simple interface could ever offer. But, why not leave it as an option for people who can actually afford TD's, and include a damn interface with some standard options/buttons for others, like freelancers/generalists, who can't afford to also hire a TD to work a job.

To me, this is the equivilent of choosing to work with a 35mm camera and a digital camera. Choosing to work blindly cause you think the film option will give you a better final "look", or because a bunch of older veterans only learnt it one way so you keep 35mm around to make sure they still can work. Meanwhile you can still achieve the film "look" with digital if you want, while being able to see what you're doing right there on the spot.
 
Old 06-28-2013, 09:34 AM   #12
LucentDreams
lover of gophers
 
LucentDreams's Avatar
CGSociety Member
portfolio
Kai Pedersen
Lighting Lead
Double Negative
Vancouver, Canada
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 10,374
That is why Renderman for Maya exists.

Cineman especially when it first came out was reasonably comparable, and definitely one of the better commercially available PRman integrations into an application. It suffers from several things though:

1)Support for multiple renderman compliant renderers. Supporting the rib spec and rsl only gets you so far, no matter how compliant the renderers are, they still have variations. Air, as previously mentioned was impressive in that it wasn't a reyes renderer but a raytracer and yet it did follow the specifications quite well. It still has to address things that simply didn't exist in Pixar's renderman or had to be done differently. Supporting each system means either building in some of those buttons and automations once for each individual renderer, or simply don't automate certain features. A simple way to see this, activate cineman go to the GI or advanced page in your render settings and then in your preferences go to renderer/cineman and change which renderman renderer you are using. Note the settings in the render settings window change. Thats a lot of coding, and testing and upkeep to have to do. Pixar only has to support their one renderer in maya.

2)AS touched on in the previous item, time to upkeep. Timm did an amazing job on Cineman, and he's done a few updates I believe, and I think the Maxon developers themselves have done updates and fixes here and there, but not enough to support these drastically changing renderers. Particularly Pixar's has seen a dramatic shift in volume rendering and raytracing in the last few iterations but you don't see much change in cineman. The original developer is gone and one of the two main testers back in the day is no longer a tester.

So there is an option for a simpler more approachable renderman, their official solution, which is only developed for one software package, Maya.You also need to consider though that renderman isn't a renderer really aimed at doing simple shots or commercials. It's never been priced or promoted that way, and for good reason. The reason for feature level renderers versus commercial renders is pretty sensible. Some have done an okay of bridging the gap, Mental ray, now we start to see a little Vray, but consider why Arnold being fairly new to the block from a commercial sense is the first renderer to seriously replace renderman. Its a powerful brute force raytracer, but so is Mantra, so is Maxwell for that matter. Renderman offers a lot of control on handling data and memory efficiently and rendering more coplex slower effects really fast. In reyes it's displacements and motion blur are just unequaled. But its displacements are also efficient partly because of how much more you have to do to use them effectively. Whens the last time you dealt with displacement bounds in C4D or final render. You don't, it's automated. It is also inneficient. Not just because it is reyes versus scanline/raytracing either, Arnold and Our internal renderer, Wren, both allow manual setting of displacement bounds.

You comparing a film camera to a digital camera but it isn't as simple as that. Within both of those two groups you already have an intense amount of contrast. In the film market with have disposable point and shoots and we have complex DSLR's. In digital we have your Iphone and we have your Arri Alexa or Red Camera's. That is the comparison you need to make it isn't film versus digital, that would be more like a reyes versus raytracing battle. What you need to compare is your iphone 5 Final render, versus Our Red Renderman.

C4D or Final render are much easier to use for certain. And for a lot of stuff it's going to be quicker and easier to do. So much so that they are the better option, like a commercial with a small team and 6 weeks doing a motion graphic piece. No way renderman can compete. Much like an iphone when I'm out for a stroll and I just want a quick photo of the cool double rainbow that suddenly appeared. I always have it on me, its seconds to setup barely any settings to fiddle with and because it's decent sensor and lens I get an nice photo.

But if you want to render something like this:
Life of Pi Meerkats Breakdown

Thousands of furred meerkat models on top of a fully cg environment of intertwining roots and Trees with individuals leaves on the branches, using GI and reflections. Read papers on 500 million hairs and counting, or how they handled the feathers in Owls of Gahoole, and you will start to see the power or a renderman renderer. 90% of users have no need for that power as they aren't handling that type of stuff.

If you want to know frustrating it's working at a studio with such powerful solutions, and trying to do a short film in two months. It is mind numbingly painful how hard it is for me to go from modeling a model in maya to getting it renderered with a simple texture map and one light. In C4D I have a model I apply a material load a texture, add a light place and render and see it immediately, 6 steps by my account.

At R&H, here is a basic synopsis of the steps involved best as I can explain while not giving away "secrets"

01)Have model in Maya
02)export model
03)Commit model
04)subscribe to model
05)import model into Mari
06)place UV Islands in tiles
07)apply texture
08)Export texture
09)commit texture
10)Publish texture
11)Subscribe to model and Texture (being nice here I could count those as two steps)
12)Import into Lighting app
13)open animation app
14)create light
15)place light
16)save light file
17)import lights in you lighting app (I'm not joking here lights are placed in a different software.
18)apply add materials
19)load textures
20)export render script file
21)in shell run command to make a queue submission script, double check it's right
22)submit render to queue
23)When finished run viewer software to load rendered image.

Now keep in mind that strict regiment is a pipeline where you'd have had a modeler, texture artist, and Lookdev artist so in a large production with a lot of assets in each of those stages this starts to actually feel more streamlined, but again for me as a single artists wanting to take a single model from model to rendered textured asset, I still have to do all of those steps at least once. As iterations go through the number of steps having to be redone goes down a lot, but many don't, no matter what I do need all five applications, Maya, Mari, Anim software, Lighting software, and image viewer.


Updated post as I clearly have no clue how to embed youtube in a forum post.
__________________
Quote:
"Until you do what you believe in, how do you know whether you believe in it or not?" -Leo Tolstoy
Kai Pedersen

Last edited by LucentDreams : 06-28-2013 at 04:36 PM.
 
Old 06-28-2013, 10:23 AM   #13
ilay
Lord of the posts
Ilay
Engineer
Kazakhstan
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,062
Kai, thank you for pipe-line tutorial!

FantaBurky, for example, i export rib-files(mapped, lights...) from cineman. And as Kai mentioned, can be to assembly scene(rib) in sitex airspace tool(closer to katana functionality). This tool is not dino(and of course, it has not qt-funky modern gui a la scifi).
Analyzing images from AOVs as "deep images" technology, can be to watch in sitex reTexture tool...

Last edited by ilay : 06-28-2013 at 10:34 AM.
 
Old 06-28-2013, 08:24 PM   #14
FantaBurky
Lord of the posts
Ask Ask
Greece
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 654
I guess my problem is that I'm living in my own little bubble, where I've always assumed C4D was directed more at the smaller guys (freelancers/generalists/small post-production boutiques). Not big studios. But since it's use has been growing in big studios, I suppose they have had to adapt to their market. I just remember it being kind of odd that they were using Cineman as one of their stronger selling points when it was first integrated. Cause, just interface-wise (speaking about the 3delight connection mainly) it really is of little to no use for someone like me. Even less, now that you've explained the strong points of renderman.

About the 35mm vs digital analogy, I actually didn't mean to compare renderman/3delight to other renderers. But rather compare the choice developers make of having a user interface with buttons/options vs barely having an interface with pre-defined options. I understand it takes a lot of time/money, coding and testing to have a proper user interface with the standard options, but seeing as every other renderer has it, it should be a given to include that with a renderer of big studios caliber.

Anyway, thank you guys for the invaluable information! And that meerkat shot is pretty damn impressive (much like the rest of the vfx in that film), but Renderman/3delight is appearantly not something I need, as a "smaller guy" **wipes off last bit of renderman/3delight-druel of chin, and moves on to druel over semi-production-ready gpu renderers
 
Old 06-28-2013, 08:24 PM   #15
CGTalk Moderation
Lord of the posts
CGTalk Forum Leader
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,066,481
Thread automatically closed

This thread has been automatically closed as it remained inactive for 12 months. If you wish to continue the discussion, please create a new thread in the appropriate forum.
__________________
CGTalk Policy/Legalities
Note that as CGTalk Members, you agree to the terms and conditions of using this website.
 
Thread Closed share thread


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
CGSociety
Society of Digital Artists
www.cgsociety.org

Powered by vBulletin
Copyright 2000 - 2006,
Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Minimize Ads
Forum Jump
Miscellaneous

All times are GMT. The time now is 09:01 AM.


Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.