Who needs displace I want Auto topology

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  08 August 2005
Who needs displace I want Auto topology

I think the Silo Developers should have made topology more automatic. Just draw basic outlines and hit a button to patch the model. They made a bad decision wasting time with displacement. Zbrush has them beat by miles. Business 101 stay with your strengths.
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  08 August 2005
Originally Posted by cyartist: I think the Silo Developers should have made topology more automatic. Just draw basic outlines and hit a button to patch the model.


Isn't that what you do ?
Draw the lines press enter and you have your mesh ?
Infact if i remember right you can even select edges on the original mesh and when you press the topo brush it will automatically draw those lines for you.
I have been using the topo brush allday, It's strange really because i have never been able to get good results until i tried it with the latest beta 1.42 and it works great and seemed easier to use too.

As to wether they should have included displacement or not well to say anything that can be implemented shouldn't is a little silly, You may have Zbrush but i and many others haven't and have no want to buy it, That does not mean i wouldn't use displacement, On the contrary i will probably use it all the time.
Also saying that Zbrush has them beat is either really silly also or you actually have a copy of 2 which i find highly unlikely, How can you make this decision without trying it ?
 
  08 August 2005
In my testing of the feature a while back when it was first introduced, topo brush didn't work like that. I don't know if they improved it since then but the topo brush wouldn't always work. I did get it to work but it didn't work like I thought it would, so I lost interest in the feature. As by the time I get it working I could have already fixed the topo myself. The way I saw it the topo brush isn't straight forward enough, so I can see where the original poster is coming from.
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Last edited by nvvm : 08 August 2005 at 04:25 PM.
 
  08 August 2005
Originally Posted by cyartist: They made a bad decision wasting time with displacement. Zbrush has them beat by miles. Business 101 stay with your strengths.


I think you kind of missed the point with Silos new displacement features.

First of all Zbrush approach and silos (to be) to displacement are quite different.
Silos (according to the NC guys) doesnīt aim at the super fine details Zbrush produce, but more to be a extra modeling tool.
Zbrush canīt edit polygons and do modeling (at the same time as you use displacement) with the same ease as in Silo. I think the both apps will continue to complement each other in the future too.

To say that itīs a waste of time are IMO. totaly wrong..
 
  08 August 2005
First to Nu Science I do own both apps so I know in depth what I am talking about. My point was get topology perfect then move on to displacement brushing. Topology in Silo is almost there and 1.42 is indeed better,however it needs just one more step. Smart Topology where you put in the basic contours hit the button and it patches the model perfectly. They would be the first app to do this and the only app. If you read Zbrush topology demo closely it only works on native Zbush generated files not any mesh like Silo. This mastered feature would generate more sales for them which could use for development time for the features in 3.0. If I am wrong on this why are so many poster in the Silo forums saying how dissapointed they are with Silo Siggraph presentation.

Basic Marketing: Master your strenghts of your products. Then expand.
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Last edited by cyartist : 08 August 2005 at 08:23 PM.
 
  08 August 2005
Originally Posted by cyartist: They made a bad decision wasting time with displacement. Zbrush has them beat by miles.


So you have Silo 2 and know that Zbrushs displacement beats it by miles, Sorry i didn't realise you had Silo 2 my mistake :(

You did not compare Zbrush and Silos topo brush in your original post so why would you possibly think thats what we were talking about ?
You actually compared there displacement painting which is why i pointed out your assumption (IE you haven't even tried it yet) was silly.
 
  08 August 2005
You didn't Specify what 2 you.... were talking about. I have Zbrush 2. I was not comparing displacement between the apps. Because there is no comparison. Zbrush will always have them beat. Read the header of the post again. It may help you.

Logic can not be debunked.
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  08 August 2005
Originally Posted by cyartist: Smart Topology where you put in the basic contours hit the button and it patches the model perfectly. They would be the first app to do this and the only app.


It's called patching/skinning/lofting and it's been around for a long time in a number of applications. The most advanced implemetations I've seen belong to Rhino3D, Studio Tools, and Solid Works where you draw arbitraty curves and it tries to construct a surface that uses the curves as control points. The advantage of using curves is that you have the option of specifying the skinning order and you can have holes on your surface. Of course, you get a surface instead of a mesh but (as far a Rhino3D) one could easily export it as a polygon-based mesh. Plus, there are already small utilities out there that can generate triagulated (or quadrangulated) polygon meshes out of point clouds.

So, how will this 'feature' make Silo more unique?


Originally Posted by cyartist: If you read Zbrush topology demo closely it only works on native Zbush generated files not any mesh like Silo. This mastered feature would generate more sales for them which could use for development time for the features in 3.0. If I am wrong on this why are so many poster in the Silo forums saying how dissapointed they are with Silo Siggraph presentation.


I think those who were dissapointed were people who don't normally visit the Silo forums. If they did, they would realize that NC has always been open with it's development practices and makes it a point to inform it's userbase because the userbase actually has a lot of input into the product. So we already knew that displacement painting, object management, and UV mapping were already in the works but now we actually get to see actual working software.

Besides, NC releases new features every so often so that's why you don't get a flood of new features like the other applications. The downside to this is that it may seem that, compared to the other apps, Silo's new feature seem underwhelming.


Originally Posted by cyartist: Basic Marketing: Master your strenghts of your products. Then expand.


Then you mis-understand NerveCenter's purpose- it's to create a streamlined 3D modeling application that has focused tools and a streamlined workflow.

"Our goal is to make 3d graphics more accessible to a wider variety of people, with an emphasis on speed, appeal, and ease of use, while maintaining a high-end product."

If you've used Silo as you've reputedly told, you would know that they have this down pat. Topo brush and displacement painting are expansions of the base product. Actually, other packages have their own implementation of the topo brush (e.g XSI's shrink-wrap operator let's you 'shrink-wrap' a low-poly object around a high-poly one) but Silo's implementation is the most flexible (and involving) because you actually decide where to increase detail levels. As far as DP, it was never meant to compete with ZBrush. But if I can stay in Silo's environment a little longer before I have to ship a model to ZBrush for ultra-detailing, that's not such a bad thing, IMHO.
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Last edited by AmbiDextrose : 08 August 2005 at 10:33 PM.
 
  08 August 2005
Maybe you should re-examine your marketing edge. Silo strenght is it price point and streamlined workflow nothing else. Get the Topology to work automatically like I stated above and it would be unique to any other product then move on to other things.

Also,I would not say those are some disgruntled users who casually came on the forum. I"m am on the forum to. They love Silo but they just felt they mis-step this time.
Are you saying we are all wrong? I would not brush off users who are complaining they may give insight on how to better market Silo.

Age old Business wisdom_____ The customer is always right
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  08 August 2005
Originally Posted by cyartist: Maybe you should re-examine your marketing edge. Silo strenght is it price point and streamlined workflow nothing else. Get the Topology to work automatically like I stated above and it would be unique to any other product then move on to other things.



Ummm, "streamlined workflow" is synonymous to "focused toolset".

From what I've seen, the biggest thing that folks are asking for in Topo brush is the option to draw lines instead of paint them. Most of the complaints I've seen pertain to users not fully understanding how to use Topo brush. But from feedback on 1.42, it seems they've made some improvements, no? Also, what makes you think NC will stop work on TB and focus all their attention on DP? Where is this insight coming from?

If you REALLY want auto topology I recommend looking at Softimage|XSI's shrink-wrap feature (sorry for the plug):

http://webrel2.softimage.com/Videos...=11826&ext=.wmv

It's part of Softimage|XSI Foundation and onwards.


Originally Posted by cyartist: Also,I would not say those are some disgruntled users who casually came on the forum. I"m am on the forum to. They love Silo but they just felt they mis-step this time.
Are you saying we are all wrong? I would not brush off users who are complaining they may give insight on how to better market Silo.



Hmm? Most of the complaints I've read was that NC's SIGGY press release was nothing new or earth-shattering when compared to the others. I found nothing (except this post) ranting that they should have improved TB. The suggestions by the community on how to improve TB is well-known to me and I agree with a lot of them. The fact that they made TB easier to use paves the way for these suggestions to be more easily implemented. Maybe you're just letting impatience get the better of you?


Originally Posted by cyartist: Age old Business wisdom_____ The customer is always right


Yes. That's how you get bloated, unelegant, confusing, and unstable peices of shitware (not naming names). Maybe where you're from or during the "me-centric" 90's, that was good business model but in the current economy, I'd rethink that. In the end, the development team has the final say because they have to balance user request with profitability with their vision of what and where the product should be. And that's true for ANY business.

Here's another age-old saying for you since you've been throwing out so many of them: you can't please everybody all the time. Get used to it.
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Last edited by AmbiDextrose : 08 August 2005 at 11:19 PM.
 
  08 August 2005
That is the problem with the new economy people are not following sound business principles. That is why we had the Dot com crash.

Your sign off tag says it all.
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Last edited by cyartist : 08 August 2005 at 11:40 PM.
 
  08 August 2005
I doubt you'll find a legitimate and reputable business school spouting "the customer is always right". Plus I REALLY doubt you know why the dotCom crash happened so I'd suggest quitting before you embarrass yourself.

I'm glad you approve.
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Last edited by AmbiDextrose : 08 August 2005 at 01:12 AM.
 
  08 August 2005
cyartist

Obviously yours and my workflow differs quite a bit, cause I see a big advantage it being able to displacepaint and edit the geometry (on poly level) at the same time. I
canīt say that is one of Z-brush strengths.
 
  08 August 2005
To Trose

Funny I was watching CNN and they a major marketing executive was speaking about navigating your Business in todays market. And he said one of the things that alot of young companies make the mistake of is not playing to their strengths. So I guess he is wrong too. And it very clear why the dot com bubble crash. One word. HYPE.
I read numerous articles and books on the dot com area and since I work for some of them I know first hand. In every bubble 1928, 1973 ,1987, 1998 there is always a element of hype and speculation that pushes it over the edge. The 1998-2000 bubble was filled with more hype than any of the previous ones.


Maybe you should be embarrassed because your arguments keep getting weaker and you keep speculating on the depth of my knowledge on the subject. That being said I just stated my opinion on what I thought of Silo's development decisions. The people on these forums get so mean. Can I state my opinion without a full frontal assault. This is my last post on this topic. BEST TO ALL OF YOU!
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deus es
 
  08 August 2005
"Age old Business wisdom_____ The customer is always right"

Give me a break, what a load of horseshit cyartist! (excuse the french)

The Nevercenter guys are doing a great job and I am really looking forward to having painting displacement tools in Silo. I dont know what kind of income your on but I'd rather not have to go out and buy yet another application to do a job.

Sorry, but it annoys me when people like you have so much to say about something you really know very little of. Wait until Silo2 is a little closer to being released before assuming too much.

-Don't dig your grave with your own knife and fork.-
 
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