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Old 01-01-2006, 05:31 PM   #1
snowkiwi
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Why Create 3-D CG Realism? Style vs. Realism / Final Fantasy Lessons

To see these papers please click on link below:



LINK



***

Last edited by snowkiwi : 01-01-2006 at 05:37 PM.
 
Old 01-01-2006, 05:45 PM   #2
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My only opinion on this is that there is room for everything. If you want to make realistic pieces then who cares what I think about them? If someone likes stylistic pieces then who cares what the realism crowd thinks of them?

I myself always went for realism earlier in my career and even though I am still heavily drawn to more realistic peices I still find myself experimenting with less realism recently. Sometimes less is more. There is no "superior" method or approach.
I still think that "realism" is not really a style anyway, because you can have an infinite amount of styles portrayed realistically, if that were not the case then films would not be able to have different styles from one another.
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Old 01-01-2006, 08:47 PM   #3
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Great paper, Donnie. Bookmarked and realized. Glad I have a wavelength as someone else.

Quote:
There is always some joy for the artist who creates everything him/herself. Because we are all gods, we love to create our own worlds - and take after God, who created the universe down to the atom. But we also do this unconsciously everyday with our minds. And a man's mind is usually receptive to the energy it is, and it creates.

I'm not a religious person, but this is awefully true. I'm not an artist, and never will be. I don't create what others want, I create what I selfishly want and what my mind sees. As my sig states, I don't see in real world standards. If a shadow is off, that's how my mind sees it. I do, however, care what others say, but I try not to. If I care too much, then my work will be like everyone elses or technique-influenced by such critique that says something is wrong with the piece in their vision. Yet, I wish for others to enjoy what I had done as much as I have when I created them. Catch-22. One reason why I do not really like sharing my stuff.

Great write-up, very perspective, honest, and a must read. Thanks for sharing.
 
Old 01-02-2006, 10:10 AM   #4
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good perspective study

as for as its good , try to add in some props which gives more dynamic angle to the image,
try on an on pixelpiyan@yahoo.co.in


 
Old 01-02-2006, 10:17 AM   #5
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Lightbulb agreed

I agree to what you stated in your article.

Beside those points I also think studios would be interested in having some actors being totally cg so they can do whatever they want with them. May it be a second third fourth and fifth version of a film, or just scenes which no real actor would love to play. They don't have to hire anyone, pay him money, will have them a 100% on the sequel and can shoot whenever they want whatever they want.

So i think this is why studios will be interested in digital actors in the near future as well.

Beside this - all those cg people who are doing what they are doing, creating realistic looking stuff - maybe they're not interested in photography, they are not interested in shooting a realistic looking scene with a real camera - they just want to do it in cg, it's not always the result that counts, but also how much fun is involved in the process of creation.
 
Old 01-02-2006, 05:44 PM   #6
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Hi JMcWilliams,
Thanks for the response. I agree there is room for everything. I also agree you should attempt a style you like and enjoy. However, I think that if you want your artwork to last throughout the ages one needs to let go of a style of the present day, for the style 'of the ages.' A vehicle artist who drew cars in the 70's can't hang with the vehicle artist who draws cars today. This is described in the paper. But of course, it's your choice.

I do think that styles should be a hobby more than your main focus.
"Sometimes less is more." Absolutely, I agree. Simplicity is the key.

I think that Jesus is a superior man. I think God is the superior entity. I think anything that God creates is superior. So I do think that "reality", which God created, is superior Art. Is there a superior way, I do believe there is, but is only understood by the higher man. The higher man is the one, who has the highest kind of mind, like Jesus, and travels the spiritual path. The spiritual path = making oneself 'right.' To make oneself right, is to also make what s/he creates right, because the outer is the result of the inner.
". . .you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect" (Matthew 5:20&48).
 
Old 01-02-2006, 05:45 PM   #7
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(continued)

There will come a day that men will make perfect artworks.

In the paper, I also tried to describe that there are styles of medium, and styles of reality. Both again, should stem of the basis of making oneself right. Again, to make oneself right, is to make what s/he creates right.

***

I'm glad you liked it Manifestant. "Glad I have a wavelength as someone else." Awesome. It's great to have someone who understands you.

I also think it's great to choose your own path. And with spirituality, it will make sure that any path you take is the right path.
Thanks for commenting Manifestant.

***

Lehmi,

"May it be a second third fourth and fifth version of a film, or just scenes which no real actor would love to play. " Great point! I think that's what Steven Stahlberg is doing, and that's one of his reasons for starting his virtual studio. Androidblues.com

"it's not always the result that counts, but also how much fun is involved in the process of creation." Yes, like the old saying,"It's not the destination, it's the journey." And that's where love of what you do comes in.
 
Old 01-02-2006, 09:42 PM   #8
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I think that perfection is probably never attainable, since perfection is a point of view. But we might as well try

With regards to making sequels with CG characters? Yuk! We don't need sequels, we need NEW ideas.

When I started in CG years back, I wanted photoreal characters and I wanted to create a realistic CG movie and to a certain degree I can still feel that urge. Now I want to make a 'quite' realistic movie that doesn't edge into the photoreal area.

We really should not worry about making our work timeless as such, styles of certain periods can often be very nice to see and although style can age as you say, some styles age better than others.

Simply making it realistic for the sake of timelessness will still not guarantee timelessness. Look how many live action films have dated horribly (and some have remained quite fresh regardless of age), this is due to other factors such as direction, sound design, acting style, lighting design, etc etc the list is endless. If live action films can date and age despite being 'realistic' then we can not hope to be completely immune from it ourselfs with animation.

What I think will probably make a film become a timeless classic is more to do with great writing, great direction and simply great filmmaking. "The incredibles" will be remembered long after the memories of the photoreal "Final Fantasy Spirits Within" have faded.

I can however, completely understand your viewpoint, because I love realism.
However, I don't think we will be seeing a lot of all CG character movies replacing real actors. I certainly would go to movies even less than I currently do (which is not much) if that became common place. I am not completely discounting CG actors, I am just tired of all the 'CG will replace ALL!!' articles that we keep seeing on the net, usually written by people who don't know the first thing about CG (That was not aimed at you or your paper by the way, rather I mean that I stumble on film critics and buffs writing that a lot).
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Last edited by JMcWilliams : 01-02-2006 at 10:12 PM.
 
Old 01-04-2006, 07:10 PM   #9
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"I think that perfection is probably never attainable, since perfection is a point of view. But we might as well try."

Jesus said, "Seek ye first the kingdom of God, then all these things shall be added unto you." He was talking about seeking the inner perfection first before everything else. I also believe he said, " . . . it is the solid rock . . . " This is also called the Christian's "Kingdom of God" or Buddhism's "Enlightenment".

This is the 'rebirth' of man on his/her highest ground. I think that, after perfection is reached internally then outer perfection will be an inevitable result, because the outer is the result of the inner. But again not many will reach the internal perfection because only few really strive for it, or know about it.
So not many can fathom the flawless inner perfection, as well as any perfection in general at all.
Because most of the whole of society has not found the spiritual path to a right view in the first place, they're usually not inclined to understand most of the things that is the result of that.
Just like in math you have to grasp the principles of addition to get to the higher principles of multiplication. One has to grasp the right mindset to understand the possibility of a perfection. Without the right inner mindset, everything will crumble down as to not see the structure towards leading to any 'perfect.' If you haven't grasped addition, you can't grasp the higher form of multiplication. If you haven't grasped the right mindset, you can't grasp the idea of perfection.

The old saying, "Anything is possible," when you reach the higher foundation, including optimism & the rightest view of reality & also to align with it, then you will start to see how true this is, and to see a way to reach things that were previously unattainable. This will also result in the ability to use divine tools = miracles. (This is how Jesus was able to supply an abundant loafs of bread from only a starting few, to have fed (I think) hundreds. Or command a school of fish into the fishing net. Or to walk on water.)
I think there is a book recommended by Dr. Wayne Dyer called, "A Course in Miracles," that shows how to do this - if you want to use these divine tools sometime close in the future.


"With regards to making sequels with CG characters? Yuk! We don't need sequels, we need NEW ideas."

I agree about new ideas, but I also think that sequels can have new ideas. But even old ideas can spark new interest when shown in a fresh way.


"When I started in CG years back, I wanted photoreal characters and I wanted to create a realistic CG movie and to a certain degree I can still feel that urge. Now I want to make a 'quite' realistic movie that doesn't edge into the photoreal area."

With the help of your first reply at the beginning of the thread, I added the 'Higher Styles of Idealism' in paper 3. This includes the tool of simplicity. For the CG artist at this time, tools to create 3D are not at its optimal level. The ideal of photorealism may be the highest ideal, but for the man who is limited by his tools, and his time, and other factors, then the highest ideal needs to be lowered to meet his/her main goal. If your main goal is to make a movie within a set deadline, then photorealism 'is not' your main goal. In this case, simplicity (of reality) should a main asset to meet a goal that is more important to you.

"We really should not worry about making our work timeless as such, styles of certain periods can often be very nice to see and although style can age as you say, some styles age better than others."

A great point. For many, they are limited by an internal/external factor. So the highest ideal should be lowered for a less high ideal - in which case simplicity would be a good tool to use. This includes artists who can't shoot for the highest style, should shoot for a less high style - maybe a style that is more charming to the present day. But really, it all comes down to 'are you happy creating what you're creating.'
For me, I remember the time that I tried to copy and draw a picture to match a photograph, in pencil. I did feel I had some success when I made it look close to the photo. Then, there came the time that I drew a picture without using reference and made it entirely on my own. The former example would be categorized as "learning." The latter, would be 'doing.' The whole point of learning is to do. Also, which is more fun? To do or to learn? Usually it's to 'do.' And, which is more true, to 'do' or to 'learn.' I think, to do. So its probably the reason I felt better making that picture entirely on my own.
The point is, the more you do what is right to your nature, the more you feel a greater satisfaction. Sure you can feel good when you achieve a lower style, but I think a greater satisfaction will come to you when you achieve the higher style. To me the higher style of God, really does outperform the lower style of man, and is the reason I think that society should strive more towards it, when we can - for a greater satisfaction.
And I tried to explain that in the paper.

"What I think will probably make a film become a timeless classic is more to do with great writing, great direction and simply great filmmaking. "The incredibles" will be remembered long after the memories of the photoreal "Final Fantasy Spirits Within" have faded."

Yes. Not all jewels of reality are about what you can physically see. The other jewels of reality are, as you say,"great writing, great direction and simply great filmmaking." And I might I add 'good ideas.' These other aspects are touched by the person who understands other beauties or qualities of reality.
Like to a musician, its not about what s/he can see, or may not even hear anywhere, but it relies on the unseen ideas/feelings/visions that are just as real, and set in the foundation of reality.
If the movie Incredibles does outperform FF I am not sure it will be because it's on the ground of cartoonism. Because like I said, cartoonism is an exaggeration of reality (and reality is the ultimate balance), and it was also established from the grounds of reality (and it's realism). They would have to outperform them in other aspects that are not of the visual. Again, like your quote.

"I can however, completely understand your viewpoint, because I love realism.
However, I don't think we will be seeing a lot of all CG character movies replacing real actors. I certainly would go to movies even less than I currently do (which is not much) if that became common place. I am not completely discounting CG actors, I am just tired of all the 'CG will replace ALL!!' articles that we keep seeing on the net, usually written by people who don't know the first thing about CG (That was not aimed at you or your paper by the way, rather I mean that I stumble on film critics and buffs writing that a lot)."

I totally agree. I'm not saying that 'CG will replace ALL!!' I am just saying that there are benefits of CG over real actors. And one is to create in a person's time, its highest ideal. Also, CG has a great foundation because of the higher level of control.
I'm also saying that an artist who has total control, can express exactly what he/she feels. The highest aim of society is the ideal of life. And for the person who is an artist, s/he can use 3DCg realism to promote the ideal picture of life that society can strive towards - or concept picture. (I hope that was explain okay in the paper, in the section The Highest Ideal.)
Like when you are at the end of your run, and entirely exhausted, when a friend tells you that the finishing line is just up ahead, you gain more energy to reach it. It's because he finally sees the goal as clearly believable. Only when a person clearly sees it's more believable, will this person think it is more achievable. When the person thinks its more achievable, the quicker the goal becomes reachable. The 3DCg artist can make an ideal concept picture of life, so that society can reach the ideal at a faster rate.

You know, there was a person a long time ago that I said to something like, "Every generation after becomes smarter," or maybe," . . . more mature." And he added something like, "They also get more handsome and beautiful." To this day, I am still finding out how true that is. And if that's the case, then actors will become more beautiful, and more appealing to use in movies.
But no, I don't think that CG will ever cancel out using real actors.

Great argument JMcWilliams. And I'm really sorry I won't be back anytime soon to write more. I really need to 'let go' of this thread, so I can feel I have more focus on other things. My thanks to everyone who's read the paper.
 
Old 01-04-2006, 09:05 PM   #10
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Old 01-04-2006, 09:05 PM   #11
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