Variations in Anatomy - anyone know about this?

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  08 August 2005
Originally Posted by John Keates: "It tells you everything actually. The very fact that a pig has the same sort of mathematical relationships should have hinted you at that."

First off, it is far from clear that those mathematical relationships are anything but imaginary - there is no good reason why morphology should work in that way.

Plus, can you explain to me exactly how those "mathematical relationships" explain freckles or the curve of a nose?

By explain, I mean predict. What predictions does this theory make which are usefull to us?

Do you really think that it is possible to extrapolate from some maths that pigs heads should be the shape that they are? This is patturn fitting after the fact. There is no way to extrapolate from maths to find out what pigs heads look like. Fitting templates on is no more science than is astrology.

Try reading *the whole of* this if you arn't convinced:

http://plus.maths.org/issue22/features/golden/

I'm not saying that it is the be all and end all but at least it might give you something to think about.

Plus, you still have to explain how such maths explains the VARIETY which is the subject of this thread.


the answer is 43, lol, dude I'm not going to sum up variations. It's stupid. Otherwise you'd need a supercomputer the size of a country to simulate all the particle collisions. probably even sillier.

Well, just one then. I've seen a human with pointy ears like an elf.
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Last edited by jmBoekestein : 08 August 2005 at 01:31 PM.
 
  08 August 2005
John Keates,

This article might be of interest to you, and you may find links to similar research from there. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4314209.stm

There was a related television program a few weeks ago, and I'm really sorry that I don't remember what it was called. But one part of it showed that the performance of an athlete could be predicted, very accurately by measuring the length of the ring finger against the length of the index finger.

It's true that we all have the same bits, anatomically speaking, but the variation between people is truly fascinating.
 
  08 August 2005
in that case, after deliberating from all the information. I don't see how looking for differences could make someone a better artist, it goes against naturalistic conditioning. However there is always a reason for those looking, mr.abstract, which would make for a viable reason. would make a good realistic piece labeled for abstraction. You know, thinking of it more and more, that is a good idea, i have more respect for you now as an artist johnny, creative thinking like this is what raises the bar for the artistic profession...
However, I personally think each species is pure. I don't see how there would be such a difference. If there was such a difference than wouldn't that organism be classified a different specie.

p.s.: Watch the X-files, they have a lot of that type of stuff. e.g. evolved homo-supersapians. yadda yadda.

in salute,
D
 
  08 August 2005
First off, thanks for the contributions. I will try to include them in the first post and give credit where it is due.

There are some things I guess I should clear up (I'm not a scientist but I read this stuff all the time and I'm not making it up).

I should mention about the 99.9% varience of gene thing. It is true that we are very uniform as a species but most of the variations are in cosmetic things rather than functional things. For this reason, the variations that exist tend to be relevent to us artists. It is possible for very small variations in genes to have large effects. A fairly large number of embrios are aborted by the womb because there is a mutation in an important gene so a gene can have a very marked effect - but marked effects tend to be lethal unless they are cosmetic.

Whilst there are some convincing case studies where twins separated at birth lead very similar lives, even prefering the same colour and playing the same sport etc, this doesn't apply to all twins. Also, identical twins are rarely completely identical as there are around ten mutations (copying errors) each time the genes are spliced.

There can be very large variations in a species and species are rarely "pure". Take dogs for example. Obviously this is an extreem case as they have been bred by people. Another example is cichlid fish which can change during thier life to look like completely different species. Many fish can also change from male to female depending on circumstances.

So, in other words, it is naive to place any restrictions on the kinds of variations that can uccur within a species. The germ line is the only important thing as far as the genes are concerned.

This is a complex subject so I will stop myself before I bore everyone.
 
  08 August 2005
i've yet to see such a drastic change or difference in homo-sapien, although hoping can help you could try but it won't do you no good. Hope you do find this anomoly in your equation, would probably be front page.

also,
I'm not saying that their wasn't such a change in the entire time of our species. And if their was than the change of such in individual variation would be limitless in attribute, and most likely minor in change. However, i've yet to see such a thing in my life-time. Maybe science or more specifically scientists could offer a more determinent answer with pictorial reference.

Last edited by RoundRobbin : 08 August 2005 at 10:30 PM.
 
  08 August 2005
The website for a touring wax exhibit, Panoptikon

And it's for sale. If you got the dough, I bet the Panoptikon has enough of aberrations to last you a lifetime.
 
  08 August 2005
Talking

Okay, you were talking about maths defining or measuring the differences... well, there's really a average face which I saw in the discovery channel, hehe, after averaging some hundreds of faces it doesn't matters how different are the new faces that U are adding the average face stills being the same, and sorprisingly close to typical beauty patterns...

But this scientifics also studied the diferences and variations, made books etc. so, I'll post some links and the biography in there:
THE ARTICLE:
http://www.open2.net/everwondered1/image/topic1.htm

the biography:
Books:
Two-And Three-Dimensional Patterns of the Face, A K Peters, Ltd; ISBN: 1568810873

Intelligent Biometric Techniques in Fingerprint and Face Recognition (CRC Press International Series on Computational Intelligence.) L. C. Jain, CRC Press; ISBN: 0849320550

The Art of Genes, Enrico Coen, Oxford Paperbacks; ISBN: 0192862081

Human Facial Expression : An Evolutionary View, Alan J. Fridlund, Academic Press Inc; ISBN: 0122676300


Links:
http://www.gene.ucl.ac.uk/
For more information on David Hopkinson and the Galton Lab
http://www.personology.com/
Looking at the characteristics of the face
http://www.nidcr.nih.gov/discover/open2000.htm
NIDCR article about what’s in a face
http://depts.washington.edu/hsd/INFO/genlang.htm

Research into genetics


edit: more Links
Forensic face reconstruction link:
users.rsise.anu.edu.au/~hartley/Papers/forensics/Overview.pdf

one of a thousand face recognision projects links: http://www.cim.mcgill.ca/~wsun/sa/project/node12.html

(I haven't finished yet :scream
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Last edited by mosconariz : 08 August 2005 at 11:26 PM.
 
  08 August 2005
Durty,

Of course I'm not suggesting that there are variations in humans quite as extreem as those if cichlid fish - I was just using them as a clear example. I really don't see what the big fuss is over looking at variations that exist.

Kargokultti, thanks for that, I will add it to the list.

Stahlberg, thanks for some fine examples of facial variations

It is interesting how the nasojugle fold can sometimes merge with the eye bag (I don't know the technical term for 'eye bag'). See how this has happened only under the left eye of John Cheese? (his original name). This seems to have happened to a greater extent to the black gentelman and the guy on the bottom left. My face is the same. When I give a big grin there is some evidence of the nasojugle fold but only as part of the mass of crows toes that go round my head.

The two on the right have little eye bag creases just under the eyes which lends them a freindly - chirpy look.

It appears that, no matter how big the eye bag, it never extends beyond the nasojucle fold (is this a rule?)

These faces are good examples of variations and unusual creases etc. Look for instance at the crease on the forehead of the guy on the top left. I never saw something quite like that before. I don't think it is a scar. It could be to do with stress (he sure looks pissed off) . There are muscles that run over our scalp which are there purely to give us a head ache (our brain has no pain receptors). Maybe these muscles have been very active over the years of hang-overs and have caused the crease?

Arn't there a lot of differences there? I think I am going to have to start drawing pictures and getting into some more heavy research.

Last edited by John Keates : 08 August 2005 at 11:32 PM.
 
  08 August 2005
mosconariz, thanks for the links. A lot of them don't work for me but maybe those books will be interesting. The web page itself didn't go into enough detail for me to really get a handle on what they were saying.

Actually, I have read "the art of genes" (which you mention) and recommend it highly. It is very clearly written and quite revealing. It doesn't say much about this subject though.
 
  08 August 2005
Talking

Originally Posted by John Keates: mosconariz, thanks for the links. A lot of them don't work for me but maybe those books will be interesting. The web page itself didn't go into enough detail for me to really get a handle on what they were saying


yeah, the links doesn't worked for me but I thought the problem was mine, hehe, sorry

and yeah, the article is very superficial, sorry for that...

I have found a lot of math researches using fractals to analyise and identify specific faces. The most interesting (for me) was: http://hct.ece.ubc.ca/research/facenav/fnsig.pdf

maybe, with enough images uploaded and linked we can make a fine and useful "catalog of some anatomic differences rarely portrayed in realistic art", gegege

And Stahlberg, sorry, I maybe misunderstood your aproach to genetics... But forgive me, I'm buying your ballistic character modeling book
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  08 August 2005
I have re-created this thread in the anatomy forum here:

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=265753

This way, the philosophy can go here (if you feel the need) and more constructive stuff can go in the other thread.

Thanks
 
  08 August 2005
A good site to get great faceshots of hundreds of people who looks far from photomodells is the swedish parlament.
I hope that this link will work, while there, press a letter and start looking. The link under the pictures contains a high resolution picture.
http://www.riksdagen.se/webbnav/index.aspx?nid=1003
 
  08 August 2005
Thanks for that Alice,

It is interesting how much variation there is amongst these Swedes, even though Swedish people are fairly uniform genetically speaking (they are mostly from some small populations that moved up there fairly recently).
 
  08 August 2005
Originally Posted by John Keates: Thanks for that Alice,

It is interesting how much variation there is amongst these Swedes, even though Swedish people are fairly uniform genetically speaking (they are mostly from some small populations that moved up there fairly recently).


Nopes, the scandinavian geenes are pretty mixed nowdays, and have been so from nomads during the last 1500 years.
If you want isolated and cool geenes, have a look at Iceland.
 
  08 August 2005
Originally Posted by jmBoekestein: the answer is 43, lol.


*cough*42*cough*
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Last edited by Peddy : 08 August 2005 at 01:19 PM. Reason: No reason. no wait. i wanna say hi to mum. HI MUM! ^_^
 
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