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  07 July 2005
All the important tutorials are collected in a sticky thread, and I think that's pretty easy for people to navigate, no? A single thread that contains no chatting, only links: http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=226083

And all the cool threads/sub-forums in the WIP 2D forum are collected here for people that don't know to go looking in that forum (WIP 2D doesn't sound like a place for that type of stuff, that's why I was concerned that many won't know to look in there): http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=258168

Mr. Positive - the word "tutorial" is in the forum description. Adding it to the actual forum title would make it a bit too long. I think "techniques" is something that most would associate with tutorials.

plaf - The one problem I see is that some people might have valuable things to say, but can't draw/paint/model worth a damn (they are just learning, or have more knowledge than actual skill), and then they'd not say anything because they have nothing worthwhile to post. Or, people will be forced to post a lot of crappy art just to earn the right to speak. I don't know about you, but for many people, having to look at a long stream of substandarnd art can get a bit bleak--like that Gallerie Abominate website (http://www.jackals-forge.com/abom.html).

mummey - Well, we don't want to KILL OFF all discussions that aren't tutorials/techniques. We only wanted to balance things out by shifting the focus. The only type of discussions that were getting out of hand and quite unnecessary were the "What Is Art?" type of discussions, because they all just went around in circles, and there are no real answers because it's always just a matter of opinions. Most people just aren't knowledgeable enough about the subject anyway. Other discussions about art history, inspirations, influences..etc are fine--I dig those, because they are informative and great resources.

ashakarc - I agree with Steven--you're one of the few that really knows his stuff. Most others don't and it gets a bit bleak when you read a non-ending stream of posts from people that don't know what they're talking about, yet tries to change the mind of others to see things his way. It's about as bad as listening to a bunch of teenagers talk about the meaning of life.

About the hosting of tutorials thing--I think having a sticky thread that links to the good tutorials is a pretty good solution. The author can choose however he wants to format his tutorial, where to post it..etc, and if we think it's a good tutorial, we add it to the sticky thread.

Remember, most things that happen on the internet forums are some form of compromise, because most involved are volunteers, and we have to balance the time and energy we spend on these things. If we were running a commercial venture (for example, a website that sells services and products), then we could format the hell out of everything and have a very efficient and beautiful system, but as things are, collecting good stuff and putting them in stickies is the best solution for now (and plugging a thread like this to get public awareness). If we get any more organized than that, then we're looking at paying courses like the CGWorkshops where actual organized teaching and interaction takes place.

Amadeus001 - that's actually not a bad idea--to have a subforum for tutorials/learnings only. But having good tutorials in the sticky thread is also a good solution too.

snowkiwi - That would be awesome. It would be great to have him do a tutorial.

Widler - WIP 2D and this forum concentrates on the foundations of art and drawing/painting--not 3D-centric stuff. Seperate 3D disciplines have their own forums and own systems for doing things.

Mr. Positive - People are encouraged to submit links to great tutorials they come across, so we can add them to the sticky thread. In that same sticky thread, the good tutorials posted at cgtalk are added as we come across them. The fact is, how many people actually looked at all the links we provided in that sticky thread? I assure you if someone actually went through all the links in there, they'd have had the equivalent of 4 or more years of art school for free. Having new tutorials added is not the key--the key is to have "good" tutorials that can really help someone learn and improve. Most people don't even bother reading through the Loomis books, and that's the best thing available for free that equates to 4 years of art school education. But people just gloss over them and keep on hunting for some kind of miracle tutorial that will give them instant mastery as an artist. As I noted in the sticky thread, there is no such thing as a miracle tutorial. You have to actually sit down and go through the exercises in these tutorials, one step at a time. You put in the time, and you will learn and improve.
 
  07 July 2005
orginally from lunatique

"Widler - WIP 2D and this forum concentrates on the foundations of art and drawing/painting--not 3D-centric stuff. Seperate 3D disciplines have their own forums and own systems for doing things".

-----------------------------------


I'm not sure i mentioned 3d at all in my previous post. All i was trying to do was help suggest ideas for how to organize forum threads.
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  07 July 2005
Originally Posted by Lunatique: About the hosting of tutorials thing--I think having a sticky thread that links to the good tutorials is a pretty good solution. The author can choose however he wants to format his tutorial, where to post it..etc, and if we think it's a good tutorial, we add it to the sticky thread.


It's not a bad idea, rather a good compromise. In that case, I would suggest adding some excellent resources on the "Making of .." on CGNetworks that relate to painting to this sticky.

Back to my suggestion: The reason why I asked for more solid format of delivery and publication, because I envision CGTalk as an entity that not only accommodates amateurs and professionals, but scholars too. There has been talks on conferences organised by CGNetworks when CGSociety was first introduced. I thought to myself it will be great to have a venue to publish papers that relates to art and CG. Personally, I've published in many international conferences, ACADIA, ECAADE, ACSA, and all these prestigious conferences were related to architectural design and computing, but non has the richness and the amount of subscribers as CGTalk, yet they are cutting edge research papers with big names behind them in the design world.

I will look forward to see these forums take the next leap accommodating the next generation of pros who have something to say in addition to what they show
 
  07 July 2005
hey lunatique,

I'm not saying those should be killed off, I'm just saying the description in the main page is a little long. Well, and also to be careful. Forums that try to be everything end up being about nothing.
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  07 July 2005
Quote: Mr. Positive - People are encouraged to submit links to great tutorials they come across, so we can add them to the sticky thread. In that same sticky thread, the good tutorials posted at cgtalk are added as we come across them. The fact is, how many people actually looked at all the links we provided in that sticky thread? I assure you if someone actually went through all the links in there, they'd have had the equivalent of 4 or more years of art school for free. Having new tutorials added is not the key--the key is to have "good" tutorials that can really help someone learn and improve. Most people don't even bother reading through the Loomis books, and that's the best thing available for free that equates to 4 years of art school education. But people just gloss over them and keep on hunting for some kind of miracle tutorial that will give them instant mastery as an artist. As I noted in the sticky thread, there is no such thing as a miracle tutorial. You have to actually sit down and go through the exercises in these tutorials, one step at a time. You put in the time, and you will learn and improve.


I agree with what your are saying but the biggest problem for myself and my students is that no one likes to wade through a 100 link tutorial list with no organization. As well, a separate title for tutorials would encourage people to post high quality tutorials/techniques instead of just throwing some in a sticky thread. Not bashing at all here but hoping for continued improvement on the site, from someone who visits daily (and forces his 200 students to visit too ). I still feel like I have to go to highend3D or total 3D for tutorials and many lack the talent of artists on this very site. I'm not saying tutorials are the end all be all but every once in awhile you find that 'one' tutorial that makes a project come together. For example, I just completed a huge animation for a graphics convention and I needed some butterflies to flutter across the screen in Maya. I searched this entire site, your sticky tutorial section, everywhere and couldn't find a thing. I ended up figuring it out myself (took me about 10 hours trying five different workable methods - sort of) and a day later found a thread barried in the Maya section that said how to do it in five easy steps. Now why couldnt that have been encouraged to be placed in a tutorial section that is organized with one title saying "Instance Particle Geometry tutorial" under the "Particles" section under the "Maya Tutorials" section. Am I the only one who sees this? *hits self in head with hammer*

Edit: What's even cooler is if the tutorials could be rated upon by the system you already have in place.....which should validate the quality for that respective tutorial.

Last edited by MrPositive : 07 July 2005 at 11:14 AM.
 
  07 July 2005
Originally Posted by mummey: hey lunatique,

I'm not saying those should be killed off, I'm just saying the description in the main page is a little long. Well, and also to be careful. Forums that try to be everything end up being about nothing.


Actually I respectfully disagree with this (that cliche works for some things, but not online internet sites (examples: ESPN, Rottentomatoes, IMDB, etc.).......When I go online for cg I want my one stop Walmart store. It's not like this site is stretching itself thin when it expands or grows into new areas considering it has a 200,000 user base (can't wait for half a million, should be a big cgtalk party...). Sites like 3D luvr, Total3D, 3DCafe and even highend3D aren't hacking it because they do not offer everything the user, audience, visitor, my students need like cgtalk does (it's simple really, when I can talk directly to the guy who animated gollum I dont think I'll be visiting cglinks.com any longer ). Sure a site cannot cover every nook and cranny but some sections simply need to be there and tutorials is a big one when it comes to cg IMO. I was part of a 3D site and this was the reason for it's eventual downfall. Actually the better statement is "forums that are unorganized to the point that it's difficult to find what the user is looking for, fail".

Edit: I'd also love to see a real time chat section....which I'm a little shocked isn't on the site. We can dream..............Can you imagine being able to ask Victore Navone a question live or discuss sticking points in a software immediately instead of having to wait a day for a response. ESPN added a talk to a journalist or sports star chat section and I got all giddy when my post to Andre Agassi was immediately replied to by the tennis star........I'd probably freak out and not leave the computer or eat for a month if there was a live Maya chat section.......
I guess this should be a different thread for a different day.........

Last edited by MrPositive : 07 July 2005 at 03:18 PM.
 
  07 July 2005
Originally Posted by Mr. Positive: Edit: I'd also love to see a real time chat section....which I'm a little shocked isn't on the site. We can dream..............Can you imagine being able to ask Victore Navone a question live or discuss sticking points in a software immediately instead of having to wait a day for a response.


Can you imagine Victore Navone replying to 200 thousand users? No you probably cant.
 
  07 July 2005
Mr. Positive I think you might have been looking in the wrong place for your needed tutorials. For one, the Art Techniques and Theories forum deals with art foundations and drawing/painting--it does not contain 3D-specific information (except about lighting, which is relevant to all artists). There are other forums at cgtalk that deals specifically with various 3D elements, and they most likely all have their own tutorials stickies.

Concerning the realtime chatting of Q&A sessions--I think it's a bad idea like dioxide mentioned. We already have a Q&A section, and it allows the artist ample time to think about the answers and answer the questions in detail. In realtime, you won't get the same detailed reply, as time is limited.

The tutorials in our sticky thread are quite organized into topics. Maybe you were talking about another forum?

And once again, please remember that except for a few, everyone who helps out at cgtalk are volunteers. We all have lives and what we can do for cgtalk is limited. cgtalk is not a school like Gnomon--it is an online community for people to interact. If you are looking for an education site, Gnomon is more likely your bet. But good education comes with a price--you cannot expect to get everything for free, as there is no free lunch in this world--maybe just free snacks.

Last edited by Lunatique : 07 July 2005 at 03:26 AM.
 
  07 July 2005
The Sticky link thread in this forum is only meant for art basics, such as composition, anatomy, perspective etc. Not for dynamic particle scripting or whatever. As such, the existing links here have been very well screened and selected from among hundreds, and organized into categories, with a brief description for each one. We thought about thumbnails, but it didn't seem cost-effective.

Quote: Can you imagine being able to ask Victore Navone a question live or discuss sticking points in a software immediately instead of having to wait a day for a response.


Isn't that a bit selfish - wanting the biggest names in the business to be available live to answer questions that 99 times of 100 can be answered by any intermediate to advanced user? That's what we have the forums for. I mean, seriously, put yourself in Victor's shoes for a moment.
And usually you'll wait MUCH less than a day for your response. Just go to any forum and check the average time between the first post and the first answer. Then there's the fact that you may sometimes get even better answers from unknown people than from the big pros.
 
  07 July 2005
I have a question about the Art Techniques and Tutorial sections. Forgive me if this topic has already been discussed. Anyhow, I have noticed that many of the tutorial threads are interrupted by trivial postings by other members. A few may be relevant, but most fall under the category of accolades and smiley faces. Don't get me wrong, praise is a good thing. However, in the interest of education it seems rather disruptive and hinders the learning flow of current and future users. In some cases, one has to rummage through a plethora of posts to find the tutorial's counterpart. If I'm a minority on this issue, I'll shut up. Although, if many feel the same way I do, why not dispose of unwanted threads for the sake of accessibility and ease of learning?

Another thing, I just took a glance at Nebezial's tutorial (very nice by the way) and thought why it doesn't fall under Art Techniques and Theories Forum? Perhaps, I've been chewing too much peyote, but I swear it's under WIP. I don't know, it just doesn't make sense to me.

Thanks.

Last edited by danielh68 : 07 July 2005 at 12:10 AM.
 
  07 July 2005
same ol same ol

in response to danielh68

i pretty much agree with you in regards to tutorials being interupted by replies, but if your referring to the digital painting tutorial "MODERN MASTERS: Digital Painting (Photoshop) Tutorial By Nebezial" i would think there are several places this belongs, application specific/Photoshop for example, and yes even perhaps Art Techniques and Theories Forum. There already is a sticky of tutorials in that forum.

My point is, i know your not directly trying to, but there is no point in critisising the moderators, i was doing it myself then i realized one moderator doesn't have free reign to start changing other forums (atleast that's my understanding)

Instead why not just suggest that this is an excellent tutorial and can it please be included in the Art Techniques and Tutorials sticky and maybe it will get done. As well, it doesn't matter where these tutorials actually reside on cgtalk it's just a matter of being able to find links to them in the appropriate forums.
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  07 July 2005
Originally Posted by danielh68[size=2: ]

Another thing, I just took a glance at Nebezial's tutorial (very nice by the way) and thought why it doesn't fall under Art Techniques and Theories Forum? Perhaps, I've been chewing too much peyote, but I swear it's under WIP. I don't know, it just doesn't make sense to me.

[/size]


To tell you the truth, I have no idea. I have asked in that thread that it be moved (I can't move it since I'm not a forum leader for that forum).
 
  07 July 2005
Smile

Just to clarify, my comments are more observations than criticisms. It just seems more sensible to have:

A. Tutorials presented first, then comments afterwards or on another thread.

B. Concerning the Tutorial By Nebezial, although he works in PS, his tutorial is not software specific. So far it deals with technique and theory, which would meet the criteria of Techniques and Art Theory. His tutorial is even on the front page with the subtext "Lesson 003: Shading". If that isn't a tutorial, then I don't know what is.

These comments are not my frustrations, they're merely common-sense observations.

Lunatique, by the way, I had always assumed you were a all-around moderator until now. I guess my presumptions was based merely on you constant contributions and activity on the board.

Last edited by danielh68 : 07 July 2005 at 06:13 AM.
 
  07 July 2005
Originally Posted by danielh68: Just to clarify, my comments are more observations than criticisms. It just seems more sensible to have:

A. Tutorials presented first, then comments afterwards or on another thread.

B. Concerning the Tutorial By Nebezial, although he works in PS, his tutorial is not software specific. So far it deals with technique and theory, which would meet the criteria of Techniques and Art Theory. His tutorial is even on the front page with the subtext "Lesson 003: Shading". If that isn't a tutorial, then I don't know what is.

These comments are not my frustrations, they're merely common-sense observations.

Lunatique, by the way, I had always assumed you were a all-around moderator until now. I guess my presumptions was based merely on you constant contributions and activity on the board.


Actually, if read Nebezial's tutorial thread, you'll see the both Roberto and Rebecca stated why that tutorial belongs in that forum when I asked it to be moved, and there's nothing I can do about it. We should just be grateful that cgtalk is alive with activities (Roberto and Rebecca's contribution is much appreciated and respected) and have cool tutorials added.

As far as tutorials being better organized without comments--that'll be hard unless the thread is setup to be closed until all contents are posted, and then reopened. Only forum leaders can do that, so anyone posting tutorials would have to coordinate with a forum leaders to have that done.
 
  07 July 2005
From this moment on, please direct any request to have threads moved from the WIP 2D forum to the Art Techniques and Theories forum to Roberto Ortiz and Rebecca. Do not PM me, email, me, or direct these questions to me. I have no power to moved these threads, and Roberto and Rebecca do not want those threads moved. It is not up to me. Thank you.
 
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