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  07 July 2005
Originally Posted by Stahlberg: I think so too, simply remove the 2 items "art theory discussions" and "philosphy discussions". But that's easy to say now, nothing is sharper than hindsight is it. If we had known then what we know now...
There's nothing all that heinous about philosophical discussions, it's just that when most of the people involved are laymen in the field (in this case art, philosophy and metaphysics), and when everyone KNOWS from the start the subject is impossible to agree on and has no practical value to our work, it can take up valuable time and space for no good reason.

However, it might be a good idea to keep the longest silliest such thread as a Sticky, only name it "Example of useless circular bickering" or something, with an explanatory paragraph at the start, to help people avoid starting new ones - to work as a lightning rod, or as a cold shower, for people itching with philosophical questions.

It's understandable that Roberto wants to 'keep' Rebecca (she's a valuable asset both to CGTalk but also to the WIP forum he's worked so hard to make a success, he introduced her here etc), and that Rebecca wants to 'stay' with Roberto (he's the initial contact, they've built a relationship). I don't think we should fight over Rebecca.
Instead I think the 'Art Techniques, Theories, and Tutorials' (or whatever) forum should simply put up a big sticky link to Rebecca's subforum, maybe with a thumbnail at the top of the forum, maybe while we're at it also to the DSG and the Subway Sketch groups.


Really good suggestions. Feel free to implement these changes Steven. I'll get on them too.
 
  07 July 2005
Ok, I had the forum name changed and the sticky posts edited to reflect the change. I'll go ahead and add the sticky threads too.

Roberto & Rebecca - it was never my intent for some kind of "us vs. them" kind of thing--I was trying to work together with you guys to streamline the overlapping element of both forums. But since you guys are emotionally attached to the WIP 2D forum, I'll have to settle for using redirecting links and stickies to get people to see all the contents both forums have in one place.
 
  07 July 2005
"Art Techniques, Tutorials, and Theories"


I'd go with this, considering how people go ape crazy when they hear the word 'tutorials'. You can add an extra 25% hits just for that word alone.


Edit: Ooops I guess you went with something else........coolio
 
  07 July 2005
thats agreat idea

cewolf
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  07 July 2005
a bit more discipline and rules in some threads

Regarding this forum, I'd like to suggest the possibility of a few rule changes that should introduce a bit more discipline and hopefully increase creative output.

An example : When I went into the speed painting thread in this forum, I was a bit surprised that there isn't a single painting on the first page of posts. This in my view contradicts the entire point of the thread.

So

I think we need to set a few rules - like a rule that says "you can post in the [insert thread] as long as you attach an image" - this way we could avoid the huge number of posts saying stuff like "yeah, great idea", "very nice, i like", etc. etc. - Though these are obviously not wrong things to say, nor unfriendly, they take up space in the threads and remove your attention unnecessarily from the topic at hand. Obviously this practice would only be relevant in threads where the objective is to make people post their artwork, so not in cases of, say, theoretical art discussions.
This way of moderating threads has been practiced succesfully on other boards (an example is Bay Raitt's modeling board, where you can only post a reply in a thread if you include an interesting link)
- practically, this could be "enforced" by a simple check in the php/asp/whatever code before your post is accepted.

And there we have it. Thoughts, reactions?

(I'll stick this in a separate thread as well, to try and start a general discussion about this particular "discipline" - or whatever we choose to call it - issue)

All the best
/Mogens
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Last edited by Skjoldbroder : 07 July 2005 at 01:35 PM.
 
  07 July 2005
Too long of title



The title STILL sounds like intellectual masturbation. How about "Art Discussion - Issues related to art or relevant to artists"?

If you still want the detailed description, put it as a sticky inside the forum. Putting all that out here just appears too "wordy"
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  07 July 2005
What's all the hubbub about anyway?


btw, I'd discourage plaf suggestion for the simple fact of dehumanising something as human as art...or whatever it's supposed to be.
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  07 July 2005
I am not going to comment about this change which is rather very disturbing to my taste, characterizing debates as "intellectual masturbation", and eliminating philosophy discussions from the forum simply by assuming everyone here is ignorant. No offended but disappointed. Hey, life goes on

I have a little suggestion to make:

To encourage people publish tutorials, they should be given space for their post in the form of a publication, not a mere thread filled with jargon of praise. Any tutorial of any value is an intellectual property of the author and credits to the author should be maintained as such. Threads, in a away are designed for discussions back and forth, which is a good complimentary way to a tutorial for Q&A followup. My suggestion is to let the tutorial run on an uninterrupted page, printable, and clearly categorized in its class of other tutorials, and include a link from within to the discussion thread for that specific tutorial.

I am personally willing to put some tutorials from a designer's perspective related to art, composition, culture, and theory, but want to preserve the copyrights to them too.
 
  07 July 2005
Quote: eliminating philosophy discussions from the forum simply by assuming everyone here is ignorant.


Not "everyone", and not "ignorant", rather - "most posters" and "ignorant on the subject of philosophy". You seem to be unusual in that you seem to have had some kind of education in the subject. Most of us haven't.

As for your other suggestion, why not simply host the tutorial somewhere and post a link to it (like I did)? What is your concern regarding copyright? Publishing it in an easily printable format is going to be easier to 'rip' than posting it as separate images and text in a thread. Or do you think there's more of a legal leg to stand on, depending on the format you publish in? I'm no lawyer, but I really don't think so... theft is still theft, whether the object is stolen from you in another guise...

Last edited by Stahlberg : 07 July 2005 at 06:35 PM.
 
  07 July 2005
Originally Posted by Stahlberg: Not "everyone", and not "ignorant", rather - "most posters" and "ignorant on the subject of philosophy". You seem to be unusual in that you seem to have had some kind of education in the subject. Most of us haven't.

As for your other suggestion, why not simply host the tutorial somewhere and post a link to it (like I did)? What is your concern regarding copyright? Publishing it in an easily printable format is going to be easier to 'rip' than posting it as separate images and text in a thread. Or do you think there's more of a legal leg to stand on, depending on the format you publish in? I'm no lawyer, but I really don't think so... theft is still theft, whether the object is stolen from you in another guise...

Nah, theft is not my prime concern at all. It is about making the information easily accessible and clearly organised. When put in a thread format, they tend to be a bit chaotic and hard to find. Take a classroom format as an example, the lecturer and in real time presents the information, followed up by discussions, but if the educational process is asynchronous, they will need to put the lecture in the form of a handout, and that is precisely what I mean. In return for this order in presenting the material, the author will need to have his/her material recognised as an intellectual property that could be referenced and credited for in other publications. The legal concerns are not mine either. I appreciate the fact that many publish these tutorials on their personal web site as part of their giving back to society and self promoting in a positive way, but publishing it here with associated link to a discussion thread to it is more accessible and permanent. And by the way, I've always referred my students to your site for this matter ;]

In fact, if we want to classify the information in the form of knowledge, there are plenty of classes that don't necessarily fall under 'tutorial' category. Tips, techniques, and how to's are not really tutorials by themselves, rather part of it. Take your tutorial for example about the method of coloring a painting, you describe a process, acknowledge differences, and conclude a method. By itself is very useful and organised. If someone needs it, they will find it.

I understand that the demographics here are mostly beginner to intermediate, and for this very reason I am asking for more organised format of delivery. Cheers

Last edited by ashakarc : 07 July 2005 at 07:13 PM.
 
  07 July 2005
Talking

Lunatique and Stahlberg,

No worries ~ thanks for understanding about my wanting to stay in the WIP forum. Stahlberg, you are right about it being a familiarity thing, but also I just believe that that's where I belong within the CGTalk universe.

It's surreal to go from being a Noob to being debated over by two pillars of the CGTalk community, but I have appreciated everything that has been said here.

Looking forward to a great experience with CGTalk!

~Rebeccak
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  07 July 2005
Hey, guys. I'm thinking that this is being made a little more complicated than it needs to be. Here's my quick and dirty solutions:

1. Since the "Discussions/Debates" subjects are obviously popular, they should stay as they are. Why not just add a "Tutorials/Learning/Whatever" sub-forum and sticky it to the top? It will be easy to find, plus a person wanting to learn to paint "clouds" would just need to search in that sub-forum instead of the whole thing.

2. Most experienced artists that I've known, think of themselves as "good, but still learning". Thus, they may not think of themselves as a teacher to others. So to get them to write something up, why not have the forum moderators invite some of these artists to do so? Even if it's a couple of helpful tips, it's still something. And having the invitation coming from more established artists will tend to lend more weight to the request.

My 2 cents on the matter. Hope it helps.
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  07 July 2005
Hey Luna, its not official but the 'Master in the Humorous' of Expose' 2 Brian Despain said that maybe he could squeeze in a tutorial for us when he has time in August.

Last edited by snowkiwi : 07 July 2005 at 09:44 PM. Reason: Take out word.
 
  07 July 2005
I'm not trying to be a bee in anyone's bonnet here, but this whole moving threads around thing has kinda confused me. I just started hanging around the "WIP/Critique 2d, Illustration and Concept Art forum"

I can see why some tutorials/educational methods/techniques and such seem like they would belong in the "Art Techniques and Theories Forum" but once you start adding in one , Like Rebecca's, then you'd feel the need to start adding learning threads from all the other forums. That's very confusing.

To be honest, i love cg talk and find the format quite easy to follow, however i too sometimes feel i'm swimming for those tutorials that i know are "in here somewhere" Something that could simplify things would just be to add the word "tutorials" or "instruction" after the "WIP/Critique". Really instruction or tutorials are kind of implied really by the word critique. Then perhaps just have "TUTORIAL - enter tutorial here" as a sticky at the top of each forum category.
This way we always know where the present tutorials are.

If i'm making this even more difficult please slap me silly, and feel free to delete!!
I hate to be one of those people wasting others time.

Thx for your time!
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  07 July 2005
[QUOTE=Amadeus001]

1. Since the "Discussions/Debates" subjects are obviously popular, they should stay as they are. Why not just add a "Tutorials/Learning/Whatever" sub-forum and sticky it to the top? It will be easy to find, plus a person wanting to learn to paint "clouds" would just need to search in that sub-forum instead of the whole thing.

QUOTE]

I completely agree with this..............the only thing missing from this site is some fun tutorials from the amazing list of talents that frequent the site. I feel like I'm usually wading through threads to find the tutorial I need and the search section doesnt help much either. Yes there is an offsite tutorial section but it hardly ever gets updated with any new content (had to wait 2 months to see the MaxKor demo) which leaves so many things out that it's really just a recap of some of things he did. If the site is truely about spreading the art word then a strong tutorials section is needed that is continually updated and well organized. By the way after seeing the majority of the 3D entries in the Master and Servant contest (except for maybe the top 10) the whole community could use improvement in some areas. If cgtalk focussed some time on a well thought out tutorials section the rest of these almost worthless 3D sites could just go away for the betterment of the cg community. By the way the guy who said changing the site around is bad is crazy because all you need to do is look at successful sites like ESPN.com to see that change is good. Just this year they added ESPN Motion, Toolbar, 360, and online fantasy football. Let's just say that the 600 million dollar profit they made last year is more than all the big three corporations of NBC, CBS, and ABC, combined. In essence, change is good. By the way, this site became one of my all time favorite sites when the Meet the Artists section was implemented and adding an improved, daily updated, tutorial section would only solidify it's ranking in my book as the most comprehensive cg site on the internet.

Last edited by MrPositive : 07 July 2005 at 02:32 AM.
 
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