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Old 06-20-2005, 10:40 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nineinchneil
what about photographers who take pictures of the horrible conditions in africa, and puts those pictures up in art galleries? are you saying that he too is exploiting other people's misery for his own purposes?


nineinchneil - This is a false analogy. Thus guy is *staging* an event, a photographer who photographs the horrible conditions of Africa is not.

Incidently - there are many, many photographs and videos of the horrible events of Sept 11. The families (to my knowledge) do not condemn them. These photos and videos form a historical record of this terrible event. They are not trivial, this guys stuff is.

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Old 06-20-2005, 10:48 PM   #32
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Funny way to put it, what if this guys stuff can illustrate something close up and personal that we couldn't see on the other footage. Kind of unfair to call it trivial.
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Old 06-20-2005, 11:02 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nineinchneil
and exactly where do you get the idea that he is mocking their deaths? you're assuming that. i'm trying to give him the benefit of a doubt and i'm foolish for that?!


You should read what I wrote before reply, then you should know, i believe that his actions are mocking tragity in a similiar way to my provided examples. i do believe your anology is foolish.
believe it or not there are individuals who are beyond “benefit of the doubt”. i think you would agree. for instance, if someone were to aim a gun yourself, would you give him the benifit of the doubt, or take actions to avoid being shot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nineinchneil
what about photographers who take pictures of the horrible conditions in africa, and puts those pictures up in art galleries?


Those are controversial issues as well, however I’m afraid you do not see crucial differences in these issues. Those photographers are bringing misery to the public eyes, they are not reenacting for the miserable to see. I doubt photographs of someone jumping off an art museum would be highly educational as to 9/11.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nineinchneil
are you saying that he too is exploiting other people's misery for his own purposes? who are you to judge him before he finishes what he's trying to do?


People will in fact judge based on actions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nineinchneil
and exactly why is titanic not a good example?

try and think a little; if this movie was made only a few years after the accident, you think it would be seen as a beautiful film?


Yes timing is a important factor in movie releases. Movies of such matter are often released at given times to be more sensitive to tragedy. This jump was not done sensitively. If it was it would not have caused such a disturbance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nineinchneil
Quote:
Originally Posted by Junpei
What is next? Let us act mentally disabled in order to respect retarded persons? Would this be artistic or tasteful? Or would it simply be mockery?

may i direct your attention to the recent movie with sean penn acting like a 'retarded person'; that movie was awesome. you can't judge whether or not it is artistic, or mockery unless you see how it's being done.


A well made drama, but this building jumper I’m afraid is still more alike to my example then a feature film. So I ask again, tasteful? Or mockery? I would hate to be in a tragic situation where you are also present if this is how you treat people’s loss.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nineinchneil
you want to jump to conclusions, fine. jumping to conclusions seems to be quite the trend these days; it's the reason for this stupid war, it's the reason for the bigotry everwhere, it's the reason for this severe homophobia in the west. go ahead and perpetuate this ignorance.


You are in fact jumping to a conclusion as well; however different then mine, you have come to a conclusion. Rather unfounded in my opinion, but under your logic you are just as foolish as me. Its ill advised to simply explain a conclusion away as hasty when it does not favor your opinion. People may judge actions, and assure yourself, you also judge based on actions and not outcomes. The war isn’t over, yet you judge on actions, not outcomes. There are good sides to every argument, ignoring them is what will get you in trouble. Let me also remind that “jumping to conclusions” is a relative statement, you say severe homophobia is a result of “jumping to conclusions”, yes this subject has probably been on the debate table for a very long time, so tell me, were is the line between developed and hasty conclusions.
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Old 06-20-2005, 11:08 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmBoekestein
Funny way to put it, what if this guys stuff can illustrate something close up and personal that we couldn't see on the other footage. Kind of unfair to call it trivial.


Like what? He wasn't at the WTC on Sept 11 to my knowledge.

From the actual article - I believe this context is "fair use" mods if you feel otherwise please remove!

************************************************** ********
Collaborating photographers snapped away as Kerry Skarbakka fell more than 30 times from the five-story Museum of Contemporary Art on Tuesday. The photographs will be retouched to erase the pulleys and wires that kept Skarbakka from hitting the pavement. (my emphsis - GM)

Skarbakka, 34, said he started thinking about falling after watching on television as workers jumped to their deaths from the twin towers on Sept. 11, 2001.

“I was so distraught, I needed some way to find an artistic response,” he told the Chicago Sun-Times. Now, he says he sees falling as a metaphor for life.

“Mentally, physically and emotionally, from day to day, we fall. Even walking is falling: You take a step, fall and catch yourself,” he said.

************************************************** *********

I am sorry Jan-Mark I have spent enough time around so called experimental arts
milieu to bite on any of this guys Bullsh*t.

His comments and stated purpose are a muddled load of crap.

first we get:

“I was so distraught, I needed some way to find an artistic response,”

*oh I am soooo full of pain*

and then:

...Now, he says he sees falling as a metaphor for life...

*does anyone think this is deep, I mean really*


and then:

“Mentally, physically and emotionally, from day to day, we fall. Even walking is falling: You take a step, fall and catch yourself,”

*look at me, look at me - I just figured out that walking is dynamic*

big deal

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Last edited by Gord-MacDonald : 06-21-2005 at 12:07 AM.
 
Old 06-20-2005, 11:17 PM   #35
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You are entitled to your taste and aesthetic standard, you can show your disgust or your appreciation to any work of art, you can also question the validity of the work of art, it's a free country after all, isn't it? But remember the artist has the right to express too.

This discussion remind me of the ugly days under Saddam where artists and students of art used to be beaten up by the intelligence forces for showing Macbeth in Saddam's uniform with body guards and stuff at a student theatrical play. Poets where tortured, artists where beaten, and architects were improsined. Do you like to live in a place like that where you have to watch for every individual's sensitivity to their issues. Give humanity a break !!
 
Old 06-20-2005, 11:29 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashakarc
You are entitled to your taste and aesthetic standard, you can show your disgust or your appreciation to any work of art, you can also question the validity of the work of art, it's a free country after all, isn't it? But remember the artist has the right to express too.

This discussion remind me of the ugly days under Saddam where artists and students of art used to be beaten up by the intelligence forces for showing Macbeth in Saddam's uniform with body guards and stuff at a student theatrical play. Poets where tortured, artists where beaten, and architects were improsined. Do you like to live in a place like that where you have to watch for every individual's sensitivity to their issues. Give humanity a break !!


It’s a hard fact of life that some people personal taste is in the mockery of others misery. If this is your point to make you will have little trouble convincing. No poets are being tortured, no artists beaten, architects are not being imprisoned. The biggest victims here are the same of 9/11. Perhaps the artist has the right to express himself in whichever way he wants, perhaps a drunk has a right to curse his family. But I will not stand by such actions. In reality we have no rights, they are privileges protected by the country you live under, and if you abuse these privileges they will be taken away, you will be punished in the justice system. This is how society must function.
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Old 06-20-2005, 11:36 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashakarc
This discussion remind me of the ugly days under Saddam where artists and students of art used to be beaten up by the intelligence forces for showing Macbeth in Saddam's uniform with body guards and stuff at a student theatrical play. Poets where tortured, artists where beaten, and architects were improsined. Do you like to live in a place like that where you have to watch for every individual's sensitivity to their issues. Give humanity a break !!


Gosh ashakarc - this discussion is a light year from Saddams torture chambers. Do I respect the artist? - NO. Do I think he is a jerk? - YES. Have I expressed my feeling on the matter ? YES. Does that make me anything like Saddam? - not a chance!

I have never lived in Iraq, but have seen enough documentation of life under Saddams rule to feel sickened that anyone should be subject to such horrifying oppression - and I mean that absolutely and unconditionally!

The two are very different issues.

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Last edited by Gord-MacDonald : 06-20-2005 at 11:43 PM.
 
Old 06-20-2005, 11:49 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Junpei
It’s a hard fact of life that some people personal taste is in the mockery of others misery.


The guy was not mocking anything, he's just a jerk. Just look at his work, I don't find it appealing, but you obviously are loading the work with more than it deserves and giving free PR to that photographer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gord MacDonald
The two are very different issues.

Not at all. Oppression and intolerence starts from grass root level. If any one with the attitude of oppressing free speech and expression gets into power, he or she will react in a similar fashion.
 
Old 06-20-2005, 11:52 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Junpei
In reality we have no rights, they are privileges protected by the country you live under, and if you abuse these privileges they will be taken away, you will be punished in the justice system. This is how society must function.


In reality, you have your basic human rights. I don't like the tone of your words here, simply because you declare these things as cannonical matters.
 
Old 06-21-2005, 12:06 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashakarc
Not at all. Oppression and intolerence starts from grass root level. If any one with the attitude of oppressing free speech and expression gets into power, he or she will react in a similar fashion.


No one is oppressing this guys freedom of speech - just disagreeing with him. He has the right to self expression, but so do I. I have not tried to censor him - I have exersized my right to freedom of speech in stating that I don't like what he does. (what about my rights?)

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Old 06-21-2005, 12:17 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gord MacDonald
No one is oppressing this guys freedom of speech - just disagreeing with him. He has the right to self expression, but so do I. I have not tried to censor him - I have exersized my right to freedom of speech in stating that I don't like what he does. (what about my rights?)

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gord MacDonald
He did his little stunt while being secured with wires - too bad they didn't break - now *that* would have been poetic (and newsworthy).


No you didn't want to oppress him. This is like a ping pong game, you never know how the ball is returned to you back. Just ignore my comment !

edit: this is a sensitive subject and I don't think this forum is the appropriate stage to carry on with this discussion, I withdraw.

Last edited by ashakarc : 06-21-2005 at 12:24 AM.
 
Old 06-21-2005, 01:37 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashakarc
No you didn't want to oppress him. This is like a ping pong game, you never know how the ball is returned to you back. Just ignore my comment !

edit: this is a sensitive subject and I don't think this forum is the appropriate stage to carry on with this discussion, I withdraw.


The comment about the breaking wires was sarcastic pure and simple.

OK lets agree to disagree. Hopefully the next thread we meet on will be less controversial.

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Old 06-21-2005, 02:40 AM   #43
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Quote:
On another note: Art is supposed to evoke an emotional response. That doesn't mean everything that evokes an emotion is art. I could call you a name that evokes anger...doesn't make what I said poetry.

Agreed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostscape
IMHO, Anyone who feels more offended by this woman's comment than by the fact that this guy is jumping off a building and calling it art really needs to get their shit together.

Fruit is a common theme for still life paintings, which is a common thing for artists to do, particularily traditional artists, who share a closer thematic relationship with "performance artists", as opposed to Joe Somedude who does shaders for Pixar, etc. So when she is insulting (I would be too in her shoes) an idiot who is claiming jumping off a building is art, it's pretty easy to see why she'd use that topic.

Seriously, why is this even a discussion point? How do you take a comment directed at a specific individual and take offense at it, when it isn't directed towards you or your medium or your profession (Unless the OP jumps off buildings and calls it art for a living) etc?

I really do not understand how anyone, traditional artist, digital artist, commercial artist, or construction worker, could possibly consider jumping off a building artistic, or how anyone could possibly take offense at this woman getting pissed at an idiot who is trying to offend her by mocking her son's death.


And agreed, again.

I really hate all of the "what is art" arguements.
 
Old 06-21-2005, 06:46 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostscape

Fruit is a common theme for still life paintings, which is a common thing for artists to do, particularily traditional artists, who share a closer thematic relationship with "performance artists", as opposed to Joe Somedude who does shaders for Pixar, etc. .
I would think Joe somedude did plenty of Fruit before working for Pixar especially if he's into shaders
 
Old 06-21-2005, 07:30 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashakarc
In reality, you have your basic human rights. I don't like the tone of your words here, simply because you declare these things as cannonical matters.


Unfortunately I have to disagree. Human rights, by definition include rights to life and liberty, as well as freedom of thought, expression and equality before the law. If a right is inalienable, it can not be bequeathed, restricted, bartered, or sold away. Which rights are inalienable or not or whether there are any rights that are inalienable has been controversy since ancient times. However, tell me. How many rights would you have after suffering a death penalty? I suppose this depends on your religious beliefs. I do not think what i said is unfounded or difficult to believe. furthermore, what breaks would you be giving to 'humanity' by an abuse of expression, simply because you have the "right" to free speech and expression - should we blindly do hurtful things to others in sensitive situations??

Even though I feel it's a bad thing to turn away from a debate, and I wouldn't get very far in law school if i would resign from debate. i'm probably not going to be active in this thread much longer because it's become such a sensitive debate and not perfectly suited for this forum i think.

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