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Old 06 June 2005   #16
While I agree this is offensive, a lot people are missing that the point was not the performance. It was an attempt to stage artistic photographs.
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Old 06 June 2005   #17
Originally Posted by Ghostscape: IMHO, Anyone who feels more offended by this woman's comment than by the fact that this guy is jumping off a building and calling it art really needs to get their shit together.


'Man in suit falling' is one of the most iconic and metaphor laden images in Twentieth Century art and pop art. It crops up in litterally thousands of places and all sorts of media, from business comics to films to photographs to cover illustrations for news magazines. Ever watched films like 'The Game', 'Las Vegas', 'Titanic' or 'The Hudsucker Proxy'? It features quite prominently in them. In 'Las Vegas' its none other than Saul Bass who uses the image in the opening sequence to show Robert de Niro falling past the neon lights of the city.

Its also commonly associated with a rather famous early Twentieth Century event. The 1927 Wall Street Crash, after which some brokers literally jumped out of windows.

I wouldn't read art too literally, especially when it plays on iconic imagery.
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Old 06 June 2005   #18
Originally Posted by Zack: While I agree this is offensive, a lot people are missing that the point was not the performance. It was an attempt to stage artistic photographs.


agreed.
why is it okay for people to paint pictures in tribute of the twin towers burning and people jumping out, but not okay for it to be done in a live photograph medium. you're looking to much into the process than at the end result. he's making a tribute to 9/11. it's a special effect he's trying to create.

how come no one was offended at the movie 'titanic'? you think there were people on-site saying 'this is sick and twisted' as people reenacted falling off the ship, while it was being filmed? no. we can't afford to be so narrowminded about art. it's much broader than you can imagine.
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Old 06 June 2005   #19
Originally Posted by nineinchneil: agreed.
why is it okay for people to paint pictures in tribute of the twin towers burning and people jumping out, but not okay for it to be done in a live photograph medium. you're looking to much into the process than at the end result. he's making a tribute to 9/11. it's a special effect he's trying to create.


I haven't seen the paintings you're referring to so I can't comment. But the onlookers haven't seen the photos--they were seeing the reenactment of a horrible tragedy, one that made victims of their friends and loved ones. It's like taking a girl whose parents were brutally murdered and having 3 street mimes act out the murder scene for her.
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Old 06 June 2005   #20
so you're saying it's offensive only because it was done in new york city where people related to the victims are most likely to see it happening? would it not be a problem if he went to some remote part of the world, reenacted it, and brought the finished product back?

the street mime analogy doesn't work here, because again, you're not seeing the bigger picture. it's merely the process of a kind of picture the artist wants to take. the acting out of a murder by mimes would be the finished product. they're reenacting it to reenact it. this artist is reenacting the pose for a photograph he wants to take as a tribute to the 9/11 tragedy. people make paintings of brutal scenes based on real events all the time. if the victims of a certain event was present while the artist was painting it, does that make it invalid?
would it be an outrage if when filming 'titanic', a relative of a titanic victim happen to walk by and see the film shoot in progress?

i don't blame the families of the victims for reacting the way they did. i probably would've said the same thing, in their place. i can't imagine how much their grief is. but for people who don't have any direct connection to it, we have the ability to be objective about it, and see it on a larger scale.
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Last edited by nineinchneil : 06 June 2005 at 10:01 PM.
 
Old 06 June 2005   #21
Originally Posted by nineinchneil: i don't blame the families of the victims for reacting the way they did. i probably would've said the same thing, in their place. i can't imagine how much their grief is. but for people who don't have any direct connection to it, we have the ability to be objective about it, and see it on a larger scale.


That's really all that I'm arguing -- it's insensitive that this artist made a very public ON SITE reenactment of an event that was traumatic to thousands of New Yorkers. Staging this elsewhere would have shown sensitivity to those who witnessed 9/11 personally.

The mime show would be a tasteless bit of performance art. Photographing the mimes' performance would not make it any less so, and calling it "art" wouldn't lessen the trauma to the (hypothetical) girl. I'm mildly curious about to see the leaping photographer's photos once he's done. Will he put the events of 9/11 into some kind of context? Will there be any original thought put into it? Will there be anything morally redeeming about the finished product or will he merely trivialize the event? In short, will it be art or is the photographer using 9/11 as a springboard to free publicity?
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Last edited by Ilikesoup : 06 June 2005 at 03:54 AM.
 
Old 06 June 2005   #22
Originally Posted by Ilikesoup: I'm mildly curious about to see the leaping photographer's photos once he's done. Will he put the events of 9/11 into some kind of context? Will there be any original thought put into it? Will there be anything morally redeeming about the finished product or will he merely trivialize the event? In short, will it be art or is the photographer using 9/11 as a springboard to free publicity?

these are good questions, and i think that judging this guy as "trying to offend by mocking the victims' deaths" is unfair until we get answers to these questions - until we see his finished piece.
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Old 06 June 2005   #23
I don't believe this - the woman was simply making a widely known figure of speech.

"You wanna be an artist - go paint a bowl of fruit or sumthin'!"

Not to mention this was a woman who lost HER SON on that day! You really think she wants to re-live that magical moment when her Son plumeted to his death?

God give me strength!
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Old 06 June 2005   #24
How about a game of Frogger as a metaphore for life?
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Old 06 June 2005   #25
Originally Posted by stepington: How about a game of Frogger as a metaphore for life?


It will never work. Roadkill is not art.
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Old 06 June 2005   #26
if you say so
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Old 06 June 2005   #27
Sept 11 was a pivitol and tragic moment in history. No one could feel the pain more deeply than the families of those who died under such horrific circumstances.

I read the article last week - this guy whoever he is, is nothing more than an attention seeking pip-squeek. What this guy did was lame, insensitive grandstanding. Its too bad that the press even reported on his performance.

He did his little stunt while being secured with wires - too bad they didn't break - now *that* would have been poetic (and newsworthy).

Gord


and one more thing - just whats wrong with painting fruit?
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Last edited by Gord-MacDonald : 06 June 2005 at 07:31 PM.
 
Old 06 June 2005   #28
Originally Posted by Zack: While I agree this is offensive, a lot people are missing that the point was not the performance. It was an attempt to stage artistic photographs.


sorry Zach - this guy is desperately trying to grab attention on the backs of other peoples pain.

(what follows is not directed at your comments)

Ya he is going to do the whole *performance artists* thing - go out in public, bring along a media buddy, grab attention, have it documented (photos, video yada...) and then exhibit them in some high end gallery. Undoubtedly there will be *critics* who will applaud, and write alot of 'deep' bullsh*t about the meaning of this artists 'work' in heady art magazines (hey - critics gotta make a living to - right?) etc, etc, etc

When all is said and done, this assh*le is not bringing anything of value to the table. He is feeding off of the pain of others and serving it up as a provocative, angst ridden act of self-expression - I for one, have no appetite for his vapid tasteless meal.

Gord
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Last edited by Gord-MacDonald : 06 June 2005 at 07:41 PM.
 
Old 06 June 2005   #29
Originally Posted by nineinchneil: so you're saying it's offensive only because it was done in new york city where people related to the victims are most likely to see it happening? would it not be a problem if he went to some remote part of the world, reenacted it, and brought the finished product back?

the street mime analogy doesn't work here, because again, you're not seeing the bigger picture. it's merely the process of a kind of picture the artist wants to take. the acting out of a murder by mimes would be the finished product. they're reenacting it to reenact it. this artist is reenacting the pose for a photograph he wants to take as a tribute to the 9/11 tragedy. people make paintings of brutal scenes based on real events all the time. if the victims of a certain event was present while the artist was painting it, does that make it invalid?
would it be an outrage if when filming 'titanic', a relative of a titanic victim happen to walk by and see the film shoot in progress?

i don't blame the families of the victims for reacting the way they did. i probably would've said the same thing, in their place. i can't imagine how much their grief is. but for people who don't have any direct connection to it, we have the ability to be objective about it, and see it on a larger scale.

Your comments about titanic are I believe foolish - most would agree that titanic was a beautifully made film and drama of a historical event. I imagine on the DVD they had an actual survivor who apparently would endorse this movie. Itís far different from silly fools play, this is not a film, only a person jumping of a building for media. People will find any excuse for media. I would feel 9/11 is being cheapened by this attention seeking person.

This is not an appropriate way to show respect or tribute. If your own daughter committed suicide by jumping of a roof would you like this media seeking person jumping of a building with wires to mock your loss? Cheapen your loss? Cheapen in front of the world like a clown? Would it even matter if it was in front of your face or in a neighboring town? I can't believe anyone would endorse or respect this kind of action!! Their must to be a line to draw somewhere, this is gone past art well into idiocy.

Allot of things have deep meaning in them. But you have to wake up and realize that not everything has the deep inner meaning you pin on it! If his wires broke would you be saying his body is an artistic representation of a corpse? Would he be a saint for representing all the pain and suffering in the world for his malformed broken body then?? How far would you go?

What is next? Let us act mentally disabled in order to respect retarded persons? Would this be artistic or tasteful? Or would it simply be mockery?

This "incident" is no more respectful or artful as screaming in a car to tribute drunk driving victims.

I do not think he symbolize 9/11 at all, I think he symbolize stupid attention seeking people. Now how is that for the bigger picture?
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Last edited by Junpei : 06 June 2005 at 09:59 PM.
 
Old 06 June 2005   #30
Originally Posted by Junpei: Your comments about titanic are I believe foolish - most would agree that titanic was a beautifully made film and drama of a historical event. I imagine on the DVD they had an actual survivor who apparently would endorse this movie. Itís far different from silly fools play, this is not a film, only a person jumping of a building for media. People will find any excuse for media. I would feel 9/11 is being cheapened by this attention seeking person.
This is not an appropriate way to show respect or tribute. If your own daughter committed suicide by jumping of a roof would you like this media seeking person jumping of a building with wires to mock your loss? Cheapen your loss? Cheapen in front of the world like a clown? Would it even matter if it was in front of your face or in a neighboring town? I can't believe anyone would endorse or respect this kind of action!! Their must to be a line to draw somewhere, this is gone past art well into idiocy.
Allot of things have deep meaning in them. But you have to wake up and realize that not everything has the deep inner meaning you pin on it! If his wires broke would you be saying his body is an artistic representation of a corpse? Would he be a saint for representing all the pain and suffering in the world for his malformed broken body then?? How far would you go?
What is next? Let us act mentally disabled in order to respect retarded persons? Would this be artistic or tasteful? Or would it simply be mockery?
This "incident" is no more respectful or artful as screaming in a car to tribute drunk driving victims.
I do not think he symbolize 9/11 at all, I think he symbolize stupid attention seeking people. Now how is that for the bigger picture?


and exactly where do you get the idea that he is mocking their deaths? you're assuming that. i'm trying to give him the benefit of a doubt and i'm foolish for that?!
what about photographers who take pictures of the horrible conditions in africa, and puts those pictures up in art galleries? are you saying that he too is exploiting other people's misery for his own purposes? who are you to judge him before he finishes what he's trying to do?
and exactly why is titanic not a good example?
Quote: titanic was a beautifully made film and drama of a historical event.

try and think a little; if this movie was made only a few years after the accident, you think it would be seen as a beautiful film? you're judging this guy before he has the chance to show what he's trying to do. you have no idea what his photographs are going to look like.
Quote: What is next? Let us act mentally disabled in order to respect retarded persons? Would this be artistic or tasteful? Or would it simply be mockery?
may i direct your attention to the recent movie with sean penn acting like a 'retarded person'; that movie was awesome. you can't judge whether or not it is artistic, or mockery unless you see how it's being done.
you want to jump to conclusions, fine. jumping to conclusions seems to be quite the trend these days; it's the reason for this stupid war, it's the reason for the bigotry everwhere, it's the reason for this severe homophobia in the west. go ahead and perpetuate this ignorance.
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