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Old 05-02-2005, 06:41 PM   #46
ashakarc
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Keates

ashakarc -- I think you are taking an extreem view. Certainly morality is relative to an extent but there are also universals, it is just that they have fuzzy edges, thats life.

View point too close to the picture plane leads to extreme angles in the perspective and more visible depths :]
 
Old 05-02-2005, 09:55 PM   #47
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Ilikesoup :

I agree with you. Most people around here seem to do CG to get into a career of illustration, cartoon etc. Very, very few here actually want to make art that you would like to hang on your walls. I have a few favourites here - I would like to hang their things on my walls. But they are very, very few. That's also why I think the frontpage saying "the most respected ....etc." is not true - it is even slightly pretentious. It is perhaps respected for certain things, but certainly not for "hang it on the wall things".

John Keates :

I like your painting - it's the kind you could hang on your wall and ask yourself a lot of things about it every time you look at it. Anyway, I don't think it's so much about MORALITY in art - it's more about wanting to EXPRESS something or create an atmosphere. That indeed seems to be a little lost amongst bigbreasted cybergirls, dragons, fanart, robots etc. Too much conformism. And yes, conformism is also horrible monsters with blood pourring from their mouths ! There's nothing special about that. And that conformism is being nourrished by modern CG "heros" as well as certain artists from far ago. It is obvious from some other threads that whole periods of art history is just not interesting to the majority of posters around here.

There is some very interesting art here, but I must say that there's a bunch of work that I'm not at all interested in personally and that I don't consider being art even though it's very well executed. Cars and interiors - that is not art. I bought Cinema 4D not so long time ago, but I almost never look in the 3D gallery here anymore - there is simply no artwork able to catch my attention - although I admit it is well done - it is not art, but very good craftmanship. The same thing can be said about most things posted in the 2D gallery - although there is more creativity in that section, I admit.

Anyway, I think that this site has to have more creative posts with personal styles if it wants to be the most respected CG site on the net. Even the most loved artists here are very, very close to conformism.

Ashakarc :

I agree with you about murder, stealing etc. in modern society. Anyway, in year 2005 I think we should all be "big" enough to know that all those things are wrong without needing a religion to teach us.
 
Old 05-02-2005, 10:21 PM   #48
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"Inherent morality isn't relative. Murder, Lying, Adultery, Stealing, etc, are wrong, always... It doesn't matter what the masses think..."
"There simply are some things that constitute sins. Whether people do themm or not is beside the point, they're still bad."

I completely disagree with both of you. Religion and dogma are slanting this topic away from what it was about initially, as it nearly always does. You imply that your moral codes are the 'right' way, and people who don't believe as you do are simply wrong. One man's murder is another's justified killing. One man's terrorism is another's crusade for freedom.

"Hi Tryn,

"'Moral' artwork polarizes people in the same way that political or reliigious artwork does."

I don't think that this has to be the case at all. I would regard dogmatic views about what is absolutely good and what is absolutely bad as imoral in themselves so they are not what I think of when I think of morality. So, for me at least, moral art doesn't have to be troublesome at all, just open, empathetic and questioning."

Hey John, a belated wave across the ditch. I agree with you on the black and white thing. Morals and beliefs are very close to people's hearts, however, and regardless of intent, some things just rub others the wrong way. The fact that someone like Enayla, of all people gets hate mail (?? what's to hate?) for her work is testament to that.
So, in closing, I don't see anything wrong with morally themed artwork, its just not my thing, and I don't know if we need anything controversial or 'preachy' (however lighthearted) on this site.
 
Old 05-03-2005, 12:39 AM   #49
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Personally I believe that the reason that you don't see more morality is because of the skill that is needed to produce a good one. A morality painting would be have to be story of consequences, and stories are extremely difficult to do in a single panel.

I was originally going to argue that you were not looking hard enough, but as I began to think through my examples, I realized that all of these people were considered masters. I then tried to find other examples on CGTalk, and I saw more of what you were talking about. Only a small number of artists seem to be able to produce a story inside their paintings. Therefore there are only a small number of people that can produce a morality painting.
 
Old 05-03-2005, 01:39 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enayla
Oh, and yes, let's keep religion out of the discussion. I can see how this is difficult considering the topic of choice, but things tend to get a bit too much heated, don't you think?


Hmm..
Given that for so many people, religion is the basis for their morality, I think it might be hard, if not impossible to keep religion out of a discussion on issues of morality.



I think the question of morality in art is a pretty big mouthful.

a) Morality is driven by belief systems, which are widely diverse.
b) Morality can be manifest in many many ways - from overt messages ex: morality plays, to subtle morality which almost creeps into the work, without the authors consent (whether the author is of a book, film, painting - whatever)
c) Viewers will be more than happy to project their own morality onto a work - either as a pretext to condem the artwork, or to advance their own beliefs, through the artwork.

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Last edited by gordonm : 05-03-2005 at 01:50 AM.
 
Old 05-03-2005, 01:44 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gordonm
Hmm..
Given that for so many people, religion is the basis for their morality, I think it might be hard, if not impossible to keep religion out of a discussion on issues of morality.

Gord
Well one could always base their moral codes on pain, pleasure and simple survival That would be the lowest common denominator.
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Old 05-03-2005, 01:52 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GOT!
Well one could always base their moral codes on pain, pleasure and simple survival That would be the lowest common denominator.


Some people do - yikes!

**edit**
the yikes applies to the 'pain' - I hope we will all find some pleasure, and survive without too much struggle

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Last edited by gordonm : 05-03-2005 at 05:23 AM.
 
Old 05-03-2005, 02:10 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GOT!
Well one could always base their moral codes on pain, pleasure and simple survival That would be the lowest common denominator.


one could argue that EVERYONE bases their morality on such things. it's just a question of what people get pleasure from.
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Old 05-03-2005, 02:21 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbo
one could argue that EVERYONE bases their morality on such things. it's just a question of what people get pleasure from.
Yes. The alternative being those who believe religiously base their moral codes (in may cases) on the rewards that they will receive in the after earth-life.
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Old 05-03-2005, 08:53 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashakarc
View point too close to the picture plane leads to extreme angles in the perspective and more visible depths :]


In that case I'd stress you to use different lenses and aperture. It might help in getting a more suitable perspective.
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Old 05-03-2005, 11:34 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathellion
I agree, but that doesn't mean that people have an inherent moral code built into them. And so I pose the question, if a child was left in a forest from age 3 and somehow survived, do you think he would know anything about morality? Morality doesn't serve in such an environment. So he would have to be completely ruthless, otherwise he would not survive.


Well in some occasions children have been stranded without parents. But these kids just grew up with a different way, but it seems they still have a good grip on morality only not it's finer points. They don't kill, pester, and they try to get along only in their weird unnatural way. Which is just natural to them.
Also children that have been heavily abused by their parents don't usually go on a revengful quest but rather break inwards and try to protect themselves. I think there is a truth to the this universla moral awareness.
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Old 05-03-2005, 11:47 AM   #57
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Jebas,

It is true that a narrative can help a lot with getting a moral messaga across. I guess that a good example of this would be Hogarth, particularly his rakes progress.

However, I think that the morality of a person can show through quite easily in quite a simple image. But I agree that it takes some skill to do this.

The point is that few people attempt it at all. It is like people have forgotten that it is one of the functions of art. I guess there is a lot of escapism. People make art to get away from the difficult parts of morality.

I don't know, I just think that the balence needs adjusting a little.

Oh yeah, I agree that religion has to come into the story for some people but, personaly I don't see the connection as a true one. It seems possible to justify or criticise religions on the basis of a morality outside of themselves **I don't want to get into this discussoin however** It is obviously a big taboo for some people so it is best to tread carefully. I like to think that people will come around to a more unified view some day so we can talk about moral issues without the waters being muddied. Maybe art can be part of the process?

Slowly slowly catchy monkey.
 
Old 05-03-2005, 11:59 AM   #58
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Oh yeah, about the universality of morals... There is definitely that. For instance, Sex is a universaly private thing for humans (unless you give them enough money) and we are the only primate species like this (maybe THE only species). There are many other examples.

Facial expresson and body language are largely universal around the globe and they link into both morality and art in a BIG way.

Actually, I think that the moral dimension is far more presant than people realise. One thing that this thread shows is that sometimes people see morality as some flighty thing that doesn't have to concern them, wheras it is much more personal and everyday than that. There is a little morality in everything in a way.

For instance, some people like the look of a big car with a huge bull bars on the front. When asked, they might just say "I just like the look of it" but they are sublimating the truth which is that they like the feeling of power over people and the idea that they could just barge through things. So there is a moral dimension to thier aesthetics whether they like it or not.

As artists, I think we should think about the morality of our aesthetics as it has more power and is further reaching than many of us think.

I'm not saying we shold be preachy (although I wouldn't mind seeing a bit of that) but mostly I am saying that we should just think about what we are doing more.

[edit: I do go on don't I?]
 
Old 05-03-2005, 12:26 PM   #59
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Quote:
You imply that your moral codes are the 'right' way, and people who don't believe as you do are simply wrong. One man's murder is another's justified killing. One man's terrorism is another's crusade for freedom.


If someone's moral code comes from a religious belief, then the believer didn't come up with the moral code. They are just subjecting themselves to teachings from someone else, which in most cases, they believe is from the mouth of God...

Inherent morality means that everyone is born with a conscience that says murder, stealing, etc, are wrong. If you steal, a good conscience would produce guilt that indicates you have done something wrong. Some people warp their consciences, or just igonore them cause they don't like what it's saying.

According to at least 2 major religions - since the dawn of time, mankind has and will continue to go down hill into moral chaos, and God must act justly against such immorality. Hence the need for a substitutional sacrifice, atonement, and forgiveness from above...

Last edited by Oranges, Smoranges... : 05-03-2005 at 12:29 PM.
 
Old 05-03-2005, 02:20 PM   #60
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Just as a kind of game, could people try to tie art into their conversation - even if just as a little after-thought.
 
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