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Old 05-02-2005, 12:04 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Keates
Isn't it best for people to talk things through and work out what they look like rather than hide them away?


I think thats what he meant?
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Old 05-02-2005, 12:18 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GOT!
Right


How can I argue against such concise logic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMcWilliams
I think thats what he meant?


Indeed
 
Old 05-02-2005, 12:24 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathellion
How can I argue against such concise logic?



My point exactly. When people start in on the "I'm right and you're wrong" "argument" (an argument is a fight without physical violence) they go nowhere fast. I was attempting to share some information and reason. The more that practice becomes second nature the longer we'll all last and the happier we will be.
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Old 05-02-2005, 12:49 AM   #19
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Amen!

All we need is less corruption from people who are in power and some sense of morality in our leaders and we could actually turn out fine in the end.

But I guess for now we'll have to look to ourselves for guidance. What a world, sometimes it gets real messy from mi POV.
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Old 05-02-2005, 01:09 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathellion
Wrong. Morality spawns a lot more from deterrence and general culture. Religions like to claim that they are the source of morality in the modern world, but in absence of deterrence, religions have justified everything from immolating untold numbers of 'Witches' in Europe, of which one could be accused under hearsay without any evidence (and what the hell is a Witch anyways? They're supposed to be the offspring of Succubi, an even more outrageous religious fabrication) to mass killings in the holy crusades, to burning the young and old who claimed that they had seen holy visions because the established churches felt threatened. Religious morality in the modern sense has just become an excuse to ostracise people for having deviant private lives.

As for the topic at hand...I'd say that art to certain extents should stay outside the boundaries of cultural morals. Better for people to explore their thoughts on paper then to have those thoughts manifest into actions.


Have some brains before you post trash like this. You need to make a distinction between the principles of a religion, and those who masquerade under its banner while not following its principles.

If a bunch of guys puts on a bunch of T-shirts that say "CGTalk" on them, and them walk into a video game convention and murder a few dozen people, you would not say that CGtalk is to blame for the incident, would you?

Anyway, this is the kind of stuff that's not allowed CGtalk. No religion bashing, and no politics, etc, etc. You should know better.
 
Old 05-02-2005, 01:40 AM   #21
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Quote:
Have some brains before you post trash like this. You need to make a distinction between the principles of a religion, and those who masquerade under its banner while not following its principles.

If a bunch of guys puts on a bunch of T-shirts that say "CGTalk" on them, and them walk into a video game convention and murder a few dozen people, you would not say that CGtalk is to blame for the incident, would you?

Anyway, this is the kind of stuff that's not allowed CGtalk. No religion bashing, and no politics, etc, etc. You should know better.


Hmm, much of what I mentioned was actually supported by the core proponents of religious doctrines, at least in those days. That's not to say religion hasn't in some respects become more civilized (at least in some sects). My point was that I don't think morality hangs by the fabric of religious doctrine. I had to offer support for my argument. and so I cited historical and cultural occurances. Pope Innocent VIII promoted and supported the inquisitors and their witch hunts:

"The Pope appointed Kramer and Sprenger to write a comprehensive analysis...Malleus Maleficarium...What Malleus comes down to, pretty much, is that if you're accused of witchcraft, you're a witch. Torture is an unfailing means to demonstrate the validity of the accusation. There are no rights of the defendant. There is no opportunity to confront the accusers..."

Taken from The Demon-Haunted World by Carl Sagan.

If the Pope doesn't represent religion then who does?

The guys wearing CGT shirts would have no affiliation with CGT other than their shirts. But the Pope is to Catholocism what the forum leaders and the administrators are to CGTalk. So I don't really see your point.

Regardless, I'm gonna try and stay out of these threads from now on. Tact escapes me when it comes to religion, and you're right, since I can't come across any less blunt, I should keep my opinions on such away from public forums.
 
Old 05-02-2005, 03:09 AM   #22
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[QUOTE=Nathellion]

If the Pope doesn't represent religion then who does?

QUOTE]

The Pope does not represent Christianity. Jesus does. In his words and teachings, you will find no justification for the sins and crimes that the Catholic Church has committed in the past. Nor will you find justification for the crimes of current Catholic ministers who have abused children and such. These people--despite their titles and leadership roles--are not true Christians if they do not follow the principles of the founder of Christianity. Jesus said very plainly that his followers would obey his teachings, and would not be considered his followers if they did not. Jesus commanded his followers to love their enemies, not slaughter them with a sword.

It's simple math, really. If you obey Jesus, you are a Christian. If you do not, then you are not, regardless of what earthly title you may hold.
 
Old 05-02-2005, 03:18 AM   #23
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It's simply very tricky to include the morals dilemma into your artwork without encountering opposition. Then again you will meet opposition with anything you do as an artist, no matter how simple or complex, or your original intention. We are subjective beings, no one can change this.

As for myself I try to speak about more personal intimate things that are more known to me. I don’t think it’s easy to make art that has a strong moral undertone and to bring it out neutrally. Simply put you have to take a side, and this will cut your audience by half if you aren’t careful. It can also end up easily into a ‘newspaper caricature’ atmosphere, and not many manage to get out from this rut. Unless someone wishes to illustrate an essay/article with paintings or drawings I wouldn’t advice bringing up moral issues that aren’t *personal.

I think works about an artist’s personal life & issues get across more and are better understood than a person trying to moralize about more ‘worldly’ issues…It will always fall into opinion- since truth is subjective. While people can’t criticize the truth you see in your* life, it’s far easier to do so about your opinions of third-person truths- which basically resumes the downfall of bringing morals into art. There will be people who agree or who disagree in all types of work- but when the main intention is to moralize it can bring up flames.

So the question is, are you trying to talk through art, or are you trying to do art about talking?
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Old 05-02-2005, 03:22 AM   #24
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I'm going to have to say that I don't much care to put morality into my work. Moral messages are all over the place. They stare at us from the pages of a newspaper, scream at us from our television sets and holler loud and clear from the windows in our web browsers. I'm not saying there's too much of it - just that I don't feel a need to contribute in any greater way.

When there is something I want to say with a painting, I'll say it discreetly, and for the most part - in a way that people won't even notice. There are so many people shouting their lungs out to make their message heard already. People more eloquent than I who speak the words I wish I could: I'll support them, instead, and let my paintings whisper with a different kind of voice.

I don't find art without a moral message to be shallow or glossy - it's different. It reaches a different part of you, that's all. All messages do not have to be upsetting and do not have to rile you up to be meaningful. If I see a painting that gives me a moment's piece in this messed up world of ours, I might remember and cherish it by far more than one that simply makes me feel sick with it all, one that points at something I've seen and know about already. Not saying that no one should paint with morality in mind, just saying these are the reasons to why I don't. I don't much care for political and religious paintings.

Oh, and yes, let's keep religion out of the discussion. I can see how this is difficult considering the topic of choice, but things tend to get a bit too much heated, don't you think?
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Old 05-02-2005, 03:36 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enayla
I don't find art without a moral message to be shallow or glossy - it's different. It reaches a different part of you, that's all. All messages do not have to be upsetting and do not have to rile you up to be meaningful. If I see a painting that gives me a moment's piece in this messed up world of ours, I might remember and cherish it by far more than one that simply makes me feel sick with it all, one that points at something I've seen and know about already.


I can relate to this a lot. One of my main motives to do art is to give the outer world something from me, something different, and something nicer; perhaps some people can dream along with me. Even if it's monstrous- but when it tells my stories, that fiction/fantasy is meant to give something so people can imagine more than these odious concrete walls and paper money…then again I'm sometimes a hopeless romantic...so nevermind. :P
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Old 05-02-2005, 03:37 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vrf
The Pope does not represent Christianity. Jesus does. In his words and teachings, you will find no justification for the sins and crimes that the Catholic Church has committed in the past. Nor will you find justification for the crimes of current Catholic ministers who have abused children and such. These people--despite their titles and leadership roles--are not true Christians if they do not follow the principles of the founder of Christianity. Jesus said very plainly that his followers would obey his teachings, and would not be considered his followers if they did not. Jesus commanded his followers to love their enemies, not slaughter them with a sword.

It's simple math, really. If you obey Jesus, you are a Christian. If you do not, then you are not, regardless of what earthly title you may hold.


A valid point. I was speaking in terms of organized religion, and much less the fundemental belief systems of Christianity...I think that's where my point may have been misconstrued. I should have been more articulate with my words...

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Old 05-02-2005, 03:40 AM   #27
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Why do people speak of 'Jesus' as if he is alive and walking...

Am I the only one who finds this weird?
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Old 05-02-2005, 08:02 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oz haver
Why do people speak of 'Jesus' as if he is alive and walking...

Am I the only one who finds this weird?


I agree it guess hokey sometimes to me when people speak in these terms.. But thats me.

....

I appologize to continue the religion aspect but I guess I must put in my two cents. As long as all see this relevant. I will try to stick to point.

First of all, morality is in the eye of the beholder. In a sense.
One does not have to have a religion or belief system to be moral. Commandments are hand in hand with Laws. There in lies that you dont have to be Christian or Catholic to have morals. Sorry Im in the Bible belt and most find you immoral simply because your not one of the two. Im Agnostic so I catch hell from this subject here often. Personnally I find modern day organized-religion farse and a scap goat for personal agendas. I am not saying that Christians for instance all use their belief for personal gain. I know many that arent diluted and stick to their beliefs without imposing on others and they are great people. But its the ones that are always out to "convert." These are the ones that scare me. As well as thoughs that, for instance, accuse other side of the aisle politicians of faithless ways in order to make them out as godless demons. These also scare me. But the larger view, the beast of religions, the higher organizations. They are nothing more than political hierarchies in theirselves.
There is no such thing as TRUE Christians, Muslims, Catholics, Athiests, Satanists, Pagans, etc... Because each are just derived from another. Each religion is the same. Just carried out differently. A Pick and Chose type of order. If these ways work for you then take this religion sort of decision. Thats how I see things.
As for moral art. It is a good thing to work with, however it can be just as sketchy as political works and religious works, just as was stated earlier. (Well in a way) Each individual has their own morals, subjective I guess I could say. So just because one person puts down art that they feel is Moral, another will come across later and say, "Are you joking me?" Its only the higher ladder moralities that will be agreed upon in art or anywhere else. Murder, Rape, etc... <<<That is what I mean. So to place a moral issue in art is pretty much just as subjective as Politics. Again I say there are the big ones like Murder and Rape and such that most all will agree with as being moral to be against. But you must think of those that are debated. (Homosexuality, abortion, etc...) which will be debated till the end of time.

I dont know how clear I am being at this point. Hell I may have went twenty miles off course from what I originally strived to make a point out of. But its 3am and at this point I am confused on whether I can make my mind clear as to what keys I am typing So maybe I made a point or not, I will prolly come back at a later when I am more clear headed and clearify my words better.
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Old 05-02-2005, 09:28 AM   #29
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Looking at my original post, I guess I could have made myself more clear. Maybe I came across a little 'holier than thou' and this might have contributed to the sparking off of the religiouse bit (please stop that by the way).

Enayla, I kind of agree with you there. That is what I meant when I said that people should keep their art honest and change themselves rather than keep themselves the same and change their art.

For example, someone might decide that they want to illustrate the plight in Africa so they might just start painting africans starving or fighting each other but without really going to any lengths to change themselves. This might lead to them misrepresenting the situation and producing a shallow and unconvincing portrail. The better (and harder) approach would to initiate life experiences which will change oneself, for example, actually becoming an aid worker. That is obviously much easier said than done so maybe there are other things like helping the homeless which are closer to home. Or, if real life is really too much (which it usually is for me) then you can get a lot of info by reading a lot of books. Once a person has made the effort to effect themselves and they start drawing then things might start coming out. This needn't be deliberate but more like a sub-consciouse effect.

This example may be a little contrived and extreem but the point I am trying to get across I guess is that art can have powerful subconsciouse effects and artist have a duty to be informed so that, on mass, they produce more of the right kinds of effects. This is partly do do with what they do depict but also what they don't depict.

One of the things that I object to most in art is the polarisation of good and evil. You can see this in a lot of the cartoons that kids are shown these days and it is frighteningly close to war time propaganda.

Ps. Enalya, you are one of my favorite artists here and part of the reason for this (apart from your technical ability) is that there is a lot of empathy in your characters, you don't objectify them as plain good or eavil. I should think that this is in-part due to your character. I find I usually prefer the work of women for the reason that they tend to empathise more.

PPS. Sorry if that looks like arse licking or patronising BS.
 
Old 05-02-2005, 11:26 AM   #30
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As for morality dealing games, play Xenogears &/or Xenosaga Episodes 1 & 2 (and all the rest which are on their way). They are just great stories that deal with many issues- and very interesting and entertaining to go through. The music has always been great, and is even greater now in PS2- the visuals also improved.
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